Sebastiano Armeli: Engineering Culture - The Balance Between Innovation and Execution

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Matt

My name's Matt and I will be talking withSebastiano Armeli about engineering leadership at major tech companies exploring cultural differences and management frameworks. I think it will be really interesting talk because of your experience. You are Italian, but you are based in US. You are for organizations like Spotify, PayPal, Pinterest, Snapchat, Upwork. So I mean, if you are working in tech, if anybody's working in tech, they probably know all of those organizations, right?

Sebastiano Armeli

I think so.

Matt

I hope so. Yeah. And as a, as an engineering leader, I'm just, you know, I want to state like a really broad question, like if you think about those organizations, right. And I bet you have those aha moments as an integrating leader that you took from those organizations. Maybe you could recall some of those aha moments for you that have been significant.

Sebastiano Armeli

Yeah, no, absolutely. If you like Spotify, I would say really understanding the Spotify model. And you know, back when I was there in 14 to 17, the Spotify model with chapter guild tribes, that was pretty big. There were lots of videos, famous videos about all the agile processes that we followed. And even though lots of companies moved away from that model, it was a great experience to just be there at that time and really see a different perspective on engineering manager management. Really the focus on people management and leading people based on technology affinity. Like for example, in the case of chapter leads, it was different from what I saw then in other companies.

That was a Spotify a snap. I would say the aha moment was the aha. Sorry, not the aha was discovering the overall creativity across the company and how really like a design led company operates. Like the. I do remember the design sprints that we had a snapshot that were really feeding into the way we're building features. And the level of creativity at that company is incredible. At PayPal, I would say kind of discovering the number of stakeholders that you had to deal with every time you had to release a feature.

Risk compliance, payments security, and really the rigor around project and program management, that was really pretty noticeable. And of course, bigger company at Pinterest, I would say they focused on data and how really product engineers, they are really involved in understanding the data. An example is the readouts that were run by engineers, which is incredible. And also I would say the focus on machine learning, like, you know, half of staff was even maybe more machine learning over engineering. So definitely like really cutting edge there on AI and then upwork, I would say how remote work can be effective even with a workforce which is mostly made of freelancers.

Matt

Awesome. Thanks. For that. Happy that you remember so many of those. And I usually ask the next question, let's say in the opposite way. I mean I'm always interested in the working culture and like engineering culture. And I think in Europe we brought a lot of things from the US the best practices in establishing the engineering culture.

But from your experience, because you worked a lot and you work a lot with the company space in US and are there some things that US engineering leaders could learn from European leaders? Like what is your perspective here?

Sebastiano Armeli

No, a good question. I think U.S. leaders could learn more, could learn to take more vacations like European leaders. But jokes aside, the thing I actually worked all my career in US in the US and then in Australia, I worked in Italy for like six months. So I'm kind of a bit detached from how really people work in Europe.

Matt

Okay. Wow. It makes sense.

Sebastiano Armeli

Even though I'm European.

Matt

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I totally get it.

I totally get. So you are more of a citizen over the world or like the.

Sebastiano Armeli

Well, have you just had like the. I. My work experience has mostly been either in Australia on the US So like I, I really, I almost don't know how people work in, in Europe like in, in a professional environment. You know, I, I think my, my gut feeling is definitely that in Europe there is be more a theoretical approach to things versus the US is just more practical in general. So maybe that that's what the US leaders can learn more is having just been more, you know, starting with more an academic, more systematic approach and less practical sometimes.

Matt

But I like the first answer about the vac. Don't get me wrong, I think it's really important to have a rest. So. But jokes aside, another thing that I wanted to ask you because I saw that you gave some Talks regarding the OKRs managing teams on the engineering side. I'm just wondering in general if you think about the engineering management okrs data, the way of leading the teams are the things that. Or the frameworks or approaches that are typical for you or you try to share with the audience or the other leaders that you could, let's say recommend to other leaders.

Sebastiano Armeli

Yeah, I mean I would say a bunch of things around engineering management are the fact that the profession really change depending where you are and which company you are. I would say that there are typical like four or five buckets that each engineer manager and each engineer manager has to really work on and are people management execution, technical excellence, understanding, product understanding and then processes. Now depending on the company, you really prioritize sometimes more and Also depending on the situation, one bucket or another one. So for example, I can tell you that the Spotify definp, the people management bucket was really heavier than others, especially when I was there as a chapter lead. PayPal was definitely more execution. But really you need to understand how the company operates and you know, you can get an initial understanding when you interview, for example, but then also in the first 90 days. But also like in general, a good manager in my mind should be able to build a functional team so you know, no dysfunctions, prioritize efficiently and really sometime quickly and make quality decisions.

And you know, sometimes you don't make decision all the time on your own. You have a team of depending on if you're a second third level manager, you have your manager. So you have ICs that can help you in driving decisions. And then the capacity, the capacity to zoom in and out I think is very key. Like you need to be sometimes more strategical, sometimes more tactical. But you know, especially for a middle manager, you know, it's very key to have that capacity. And then I think the more you become senior, the more you, you're less tactical and more strategical.

Matt

And Sebastiano, now you are your role as director of engineering at the upwork and this kind of experience with this company interests me the most so personally because I'm running a dev shop based in Poland and I was always wondering if you are director of engineering and you have the shortage. Let's say you have to deliver faster some, some features or you don't have the skill. I mean regarding maybe the language. Right. So if you use the pool of the engineers there.

Sebastiano Armeli

If.

Matt

Yes, how does it work?

Sebastiano Armeli

Yeah, no, good question. We do hire people, many ICS from our platform and it's also a way to dog food our product said that, you know, we have a pretty intensive like screening process around hiring people from the platform. So we do have a central engineering group that does a bunch of screening before even getting to us. So we really keep a high bar for the people that we hire. Our managers are all though full time and based in the US most of them. And then I would say 95% of our ICs individual contributors are across Europe, Middle East, South America. But the quality is still high because we do have a very strict screening process.

So a bunch of technical rounds and then when it gets to us, we do the standard interviews, both behavioral and additional technical.

Matt

And I will get back to like the things that you mentioned before. So it got my attention to the PayPal, right? You manage all stakeholders. And when I see, let's say on one matrix I see the PayPal and I see another site, I mean the Spotify, Pterist, Snapchat, Upwork, a bit smaller organization. PayPal, it's I think it's like a huge corporation and it's already so long on the market that the, the way how they operate, it's a bit different. So if you think about those companies or maybe there is something that I don't see like differences what, what those company could learn from each other like the PayPal from those smaller, more agile organizations and then other way around.

Sebastiano Armeli

Yeah, yeah, definitely they were pretty different. PayPal more corporate for sure. But that comes also with focus on execution as I mentioned, delivering on time and budget. So what I really learned at PayPal was sticking with the timelines and being strict around that. And versus other companies sometimes you're a bit more fluid or there is a bit you can make some scope cut or pushing the timelines versus a PayPal things were running the project management side was really, I think it was done really well. And also the presence of risk compliance, legal security checks on any feature also was I think a really good thing. But also it's related to the fact that PayPal works is around finance.

I think on the other side I think all those companies, Spotify, Pinterest, Snap, they have great talent and I think people working at this company, they're really passionate about the product and they're really bought in the mission and they really live and breathe the product. And that was something that maybe on the other side that people can learn from those companies.

Matt

And during your career you changed the domain or the industry quite a few times. And I'm wondering do you approach like the different industry or different domain A bit different or do you see like distinctive differences between them or you know, it's like, you know, we do the software and it doesn't matter so much like if this is this industry or.

Sebastiano Armeli

This industry now definitely there are lots of differences in terms of industries. Like when I worked in monetization, there are lots of domain knowledge that you need to know. When you work in shopping as well when you work in crypto or wallet, there are specific interactions with third party. You need to know when you work messaging, Snap and now you have to be familiar with a bunch of technologies like websockets, et cetera. Personally, I enjoy learning a new domain. I'm always open to explore other domains or even going deep like I'm doing now around messaging. My goal is generally Just to learn new experiences and expand in my management role.

And the way you do that is just emulating experiences, staying in the management path. That's really what I'm really interested. And also I feel good that I kind of going through different steps in management from line manager to manager of managers to director. And I'm not really skipping any steps or rushing through the path. And eventually I aspire to be an executive.

Matt

And last time when we talk it caught my attention. I think you are just only 2 of like 80 people with whom I talk during this. Those interviews. Who has the Readme file right? So if you're starting a new organization, you have your own readme file that you share with other. With other people for the engineers. So could you tell me and the listeners more about it?

What is inside? Like why do you.

Sebastiano Armeli

Yeah, yeah. That's something I probably started doing seven, eight years ago. There was a. It was popular back then and it's actually public. I think it's. README.com is a website but it's basically about my approach to management, my expectation for my direct reports which now they're managers. But when I started they were ICs, my personal principles and values.

Like for example, I value honesty and strict talking. I believe in trust. I don't like micromanagement. No one likes micromanagement. How to run one on one. Like how I run one on ones. How I give and like receiving feedback.

Kind of like my working hours and some quirks like I drink green smoothies. That delta is at top of my priority in my life. Like I do workout every day and I have some windows where that's my priority. And I mean unless there's you know, P0 like no one should disturb in those couple of hours. So you basically get to know a bit of myself and what to expect.

Matt

Makes sense.

Sebastiano Armeli

Makes sense.

Matt

And during the recession so like the last year was pretty tough and tech this year it's like so. So I would say up and down, it's a roller. But I think there is more focus on the productivity and platinum of the tech organizations. What do you think about this trend? Or maybe you don't see it happening.

Sebastiano Armeli

For a longer time? Yeah, not totally. I think there is a general need for organizations to be more efficient in some cases. I mean I have to say that there were layers of management that weren't necessary and especially in the current time. Like because you know, if you're in a growth environment, let's say you have a senior manager, like a manager of managers between the Line manager and a director which has two groups with two managers. In a growth environment, that can make sense because you expect that group to grow. So that layer can be helpful.

But in a recession or contracting environment, it's easy to make the argument that the layer is not needed and you can just have, you don't need a senior manager between a line manager and a director. That's just an example of, I think some of the differences when you are in a contracting or in a growth environment. And I think some of the decisions and you know, the. Around flattening the organization, they're, they're around that. And you know, I think there is a logic around it. You know, I think as long as, you know, we don't go too far on, on the other spectrum where we think that everything can be flattened out, the managers are not needed, which I know that some companies have tried in the past, but I'm not sure if that's ever been a successful experiment.

Matt

I always like to ask my guests about the contrarian decision. Contrarian approach is controversial engineering decisions. So maybe do you recall some of the decisions and you could tell me, tell us more about it. Like the time when you were part of a controversial engineering decision and you know how this involved what, what you did.

Sebastiano Armeli

Yeah, I think a controversial decision.

Matt

We.

Sebastiano Armeli

Took was that when we were executing on a big RE architecture, the messaging client, and we really decided to do a pivot, a big pivot in terms of execution. So after three months we were working on a milestone, we decided to stop that and work on a different milestone that would have had fast delivery of the initial product. And this was because we wanted to kind of not lose the confidence from Exec because it was a really long RE architecture and project. And if we kept working on the initial milestone, which maybe was the most efficient way to execute in terms of the overall project, but it would have taken longer to get to a first mvp. So, you know, I think that decision was controversial because if you look at the overall efficiency of the project, maybe it wasn't the best decision. But at that time, just to keep the confidence of Exec and just like to get something out the door as soon as possible, we, you know, that that's why we made that decision.

Matt

And how about what was it like the hardest thing that you have ever done in your career? Or do you recall any other situation that was the hardest and you could tell more about it?

Sebastiano Armeli

I think the artist for me is always the layoff. So probably laying off someone two months after I joined a company. In that case, I'm not saying which company, but the list was already made before I joined and I'm not even sure if that was the right thing either.

Matt

But yeah, I bet this could be really hard, especially then if you want to establish kind of relationship with the team and you start from the point that you are not quite sure about.

Sebastiano Armeli

Right?

Matt

You don't know context.

Sebastiano Armeli

Right, right, right.

Matt

I feel like each year we learn something new. It doesn't matter how old we are and doesn't matter what we do at what the organization. And I'm just wondering in your case, what are your current challenges? What do you type in Google or in ChatGPT to find the inspiration to solve it?

Sebastiano Armeli

And right now my current challenge is really figuring out the right topology and charter for my work. I've been doing small tweaks in the last two quarters, but I just want to get to a more defined topology maybe because recently I read Team Topologies as a book and I kind of want to have my work fitting in one of those models.

So that's what I've been asking ChatGPT. But I usually use ChatGPT as an example. I also use Claude sometimes to format emails or summarize information. Also if there is a topic that I don't know, instead of going on Google Search I will ask ChatGPT and that provides me starting point and then I can dive deep asking more questions to ChatGPT or sometimes I even go to Google Search back to Google Search just to do more reading based on links. So I think you know, there is still, at least from the way I use it, there is still a use case where I do like reading the original documents coming from Google Search. But yes, the old school.

Matt

The old school how we used to learn, how we used to learn. Yeah, I have the same and the last thing that I'm asking all my guests can you recommend any books, resources, podcast conferences that have been particularly helpful to you as a tech leader, engineering leader, director?

Sebastiano Armeli

Yeah, terms of books. I mean a bunch maybe you can see behind me. I like the Manager's Path by Camille Fournier the five Dysfunction of a Team An Elegant Puzzle by Will Larson the Art of Leadership Mikael Lobb in Topologies A Good strategy Best Strategy the Cracks Pushing Habit in terms of podcasts, of course aside from your podcast, I listen to the ELC podcast Mother Management Mother Manager Coaching for Leaders. I also listen to other podcasts or more on health like Peter Tia or Andrew Uberman's podcast, but different topic in terms of conferences recently I've been a lead dev. It was a good conference. I've been at the ELC Annual Great conference in San Francisco. I've been to Elevate from Plateau San Francisco.

Those are good conferences.

Matt

Awesome. Thank you very much for the recommendation and all the answer that you gave. It was really insightful talk, Sebastiano. So thanks for today.

Sebastiano Armeli

Thanks to you Matt. Follow Matt and Leshek on link.

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