[ BETTER TECH LEADERSHIP ]

The Tech Leadership Odyssey : From Learning to Leading

[ THE SPEAKERS ]

Meet our hosts & guests

Matt Warcholinski
CO-FOUNDER, BRAINHUB

Co-founder of Brainhub, Matt describes himself as a “serial entrepreneur”. Throughout his career, Matt has developed several startups in Germany, wearing many hats- from a marketer to an IT Engineer and customer support specialist. As a host of the Better Tech Leadership podcast, Matt talks about growing successful businesses and the challenges of being a startup founder and investor.

Juan Garberi
Engineering Team Lead

Juan Garberi is the Engineering Team Lead at Wolt, with over two decades of experience in software development and engineering management. He has held key roles at heycar, Forto, OLX Group, and Amazon. Skilled in Python, PHP, LUA, and AWS, Juan is passionate about innovative tech projects and enjoys working with Arduino.

Transcript

00:09 - 00:16
My name is Matt, and I will be talking with Juan Garberi about understanding business needs and customizing leadership approach.

00:16 - 00:21
Juan, in for the past 7 years, you worked here or 8 years already. Right?

00:21 - 00:24
You are in Germany 8 years. Right? Yes.

00:24 - 00:25
Let's say 7 years almost.

00:25 - 00:27
Yeah. 7 years or something.

00:27 - 00:32
So you work as an engineer in another head of engineering, leading various teams here. Mhmm.

00:32 - 00:34
Pretty international as far as I, yep, know.

00:37 - 00:42
And I'm just always wondering, like, how was your switch from the software developer?

00:42 - 00:45
Because you are in a tech business for quite a while Yes. Like a managerial role.

00:45 - 00:48
So it was basically by accident.

00:48 - 00:50
I'll involve a lot of killing the ego.

00:50 - 00:52
But that is a separate topic.

00:53 - 00:58
But basically, I was working I started a company.

00:59 - 01:04
And then in this company, one of the strongest engineers that later became my mentor, poached

01:04 - 01:05
me to go to a start up.

01:06 - 01:09
And he told me, Look, I need a senior wagon engineer working with us.

01:10 - 01:13
I I made the jump to senior after the interviews and everything.

01:13 - 01:17
And this guy is really talented, but he was mainly a co web programmer.

01:17 - 01:22
He built an amazing team, but he was not taking care of the team in a good way.

01:23 - 01:26
I mean, because he was doing something else.

01:28 - 01:29
It's a really big challenge.

01:31 - 01:35
So basically I tried to support him on these little things about the structure and the deliveries.

01:35 - 01:38
We didn't have, like, a formal process working with Prog.

01:38 - 01:41
We were working with one of the engineers and a mathematician.

01:41 - 01:45
We needed to structure the business rules on how everything should work.

01:46 - 01:50
And then organically fell on that role while he was doing the other part while I was doing coding.

01:51 - 01:57
And eventually, one day, he decided to part ways with the companies and said, like, I want to do something else.

01:57 - 01:59
And this is great because Mariano is his name.

01:59 - 02:05
He went, talked to the owner of the startup, talked with who will be my boss, with everyone, and said, no.

02:05 - 02:08
Juan is ready to take over the team. He's already doing it.

02:08 - 02:11
And by the way, this is these are his I already talked to him.

02:11 - 02:13
These are his conversation expectations.

02:14 - 02:15
And then he came, tapped me on the shoulder.

02:15 - 02:17
I was like, Sorry, dude. I'm leaving.

02:17 - 02:22
I already get my notice in Argentina between 2 weeks and a month, and you got this.

02:23 - 02:29
And he packed the bag for Friday and then get back for a couple of holidays, and then he went on vacation and bye.

02:30 - 02:34
So, yeah, I took over the team, And that was a really nice experience.

02:34 - 02:37
And then I applied for another company called Globant.

02:39 - 02:40
Basically, I need a tech lead.

02:40 - 02:48
And the role of the engineering manager as is or as is seen here in Europe was not fully defined there.

02:48 - 02:54
So I realized, okay, this engineer maybe requires some guidance on the career development or

02:54 - 02:59
maybe it requires some tooling on how to develop themselves or how to distribute the workload.

02:59 - 03:02
We're working with project management or with project owners.

03:02 - 03:06
So I kind of fell under the role and kept maturing and maturing and evolving.

03:06 - 03:07
So it was basically organic.

03:07 - 03:14
I realized that I could contribute more by unblocking others than with my code alone.

03:14 - 03:18
I love coding, but I realise I can only code for 1 person.

03:19 - 03:24
But if I do my job right, I can grab a team of 10 people and really make a difference.

03:24 - 03:27
So, yeah, impact wise, it was a no brainer.

03:28 - 03:30
What what you said, it makes a lot of sense.

03:30 - 03:34
But I'm just wondering from your perspective, was something surprising for you?

03:34 - 03:39
Like, I mean, like because as a software developer, you see only the side of, developing the software.

03:39 - 03:42
You don't see the high level so much or, like, the video and so on.

03:42 - 03:44
So I'm just wondering what was it

03:44 - 03:54
for you. So I have this idea that, you shall sit for 50 minutes with all the stakeholders. They say, okay. You do this. I do this. I do this. You do this.

03:54 - 03:58
And then everybody goes their own way and everything is done.

03:58 - 04:04
And I discovered the human factor behind the projects and that not everybody delivers the same.

04:05 - 04:11
So I needed to understand what were the complexities of every person and how they want to deliver

04:11 - 04:14
or what they can deliver or how they want to grow.

04:14 - 04:19
I've seen really talented engineers that kind of work with other people because the setting is not right.

04:20 - 04:25
So, like, the main challenge was understanding that it was not a problem that I just needed

04:25 - 04:32
to factorise the perfect, but also to understand that there were at least 7 more layers behind.

04:33 - 04:35
And those layers were evolving constantly.

04:36 - 04:38
So it's kinda like in a battlefield.

04:38 - 04:44
Let's say, you like, if you're playing a team sport and then you see, like, an an opening, and

04:44 - 04:47
then you play there and then you fall back, and then you move forward, and then you fall back,

04:47 - 04:51
and then you see another clear, and then you move forward. So that was that.

04:51 - 04:53
Like, it was, like, the second realisation.

04:53 - 04:58
As a developer, I always thought the medical amount, everybody knows this book.

04:58 - 05:05
And how come, like, project manager, engineer, leaders, like, doesn't know this? It's not that easy. Everybody understands this conceptually.

05:05 - 05:10
But whenever you need to start working with the people, that's a complete completely separate beast.

05:10 - 05:14
Like, it's a different animal, and how you handle the process is completely different.

05:14 - 05:16
So that was the the reality check.

05:17 - 05:19
And how about the the vault?

05:19 - 05:21
Because you're working on vault for quite a while.

05:21 - 05:28
And I'm just wondering the the really specific thing because my experience with with clients

05:28 - 05:32
and people from Finland working, they are really close. They are super introverts.

05:32 - 05:38
Like, if I compare I work with guys from Norway, from Denmark, from Iceland, from Sweden, but,

05:38 - 05:45
like, to work with the guys from Finland, it's so difficult even, like, you know, to get into this,

05:46 - 05:50
you know. There are different there are different skill sets.

05:50 - 05:54
I don't like to think about the word competencies. It's a different toolbox.

05:55 - 05:57
It's funny because I ask you where you're from and you tell me you're Polish.

05:57 - 06:02
I work with my first contact with Polish engineers, for example.

06:03 - 06:06
It was the same greeting that you are telling me about the the Finnish culture.

06:07 - 06:10
And after 2 weeks, it's just like I'm from Buenos Aires.

06:10 - 06:13
It's like, these are Portunos that speak Polish.

06:13 - 06:15
In culture, we have so much in common.

06:15 - 06:18
So it's more about finding the elements that you have in common.

06:19 - 06:29
Having a professional setting and having a certain let's call it a behaviour contract, it really helps.

06:31 - 06:36
Basically, it's about being flexible and being understanding that people have different competencies.

06:36 - 06:38
I can give you an example on this.

06:38 - 06:43
For example, a bit on the spectrum. I'm still getting diagnosed.

06:43 - 06:51
And I was working with an engineer who was, I respectfully, nameless, great guy.

06:52 - 06:58
He was not diagnosed, but he was having struggles because our director was really pushing him

06:59 - 07:02
to speak in conferences but with a really good positive attitude.

07:02 - 07:07
It's like, hey dude, you can get you promoted but it's really pre pandemic to go to this conference

07:07 - 07:08
and do this and do that.

07:08 - 07:15
There was a cultural barrier as well from his country of origin and he felt like really challenged on that.

07:15 - 07:18
And he's like he doesn't need to do this, it's not like a checkbox.

07:18 - 07:24
Why don't we put this person to work on a project that they feel comfortable?

07:24 - 07:28
I don't have to be talking with people every 24 hours with a status update. I'm breaking down.

07:28 - 07:31
It's like, you know what? You do this. Callaway programmer style.

07:32 - 07:37
Get back to us every 2 days with a written report. Yes. This is this. This is it.

07:37 - 07:40
Kim didn't get up to date, man. That's it.

07:40 - 07:46
So, I'm funny because of all the people that I work with, especially from other countries, the

07:46 - 07:52
Finnish were the most warm of all That's really open. Really? Yes.

07:52 - 07:57
But it was quite interesting. Our city was Finnish. Amazing guy.

07:57 - 07:59
One of all data analysts and scientists.

08:00 - 08:06
Well, 2 of us. 1 data analyst, one of the scientists, Tori and Jakov, finished.

08:06 - 08:08
And it's 5 minutes in.

08:08 - 08:10
Okay, let's have a beer and talk.

08:10 - 08:13
The project called life and everything.

08:13 - 08:15
They have been really warm with me.

08:15 - 08:18
But people tend to open up with me.

08:18 - 08:24
And I think that is kind of like a really nice tool that I have, being an engineer leader or a manager.

08:25 - 08:31
I think it's a great skill, right, especially in such, different environment with different nationalities.

08:32 - 08:37
Being an introvert and having the skill, it's it was hard growing up.

08:37 - 08:42
But then I realized that, yeah, okay, people talk to me. Let's embrace this.

08:42 - 08:49
So it's about investing with the cultural differences, not in their limitations, but also investing

08:49 - 08:51
a lot in the strong points.

08:51 - 08:53
We are not the same and it's fantastic.

08:55 - 09:04
So I wanted to discuss the last 2 years and, like, the this year because, like, 2 years ago,

09:04 - 09:06
the the the market was hyped.

09:06 - 09:07
Like, a big techs was hyped.

09:08 - 09:09
The the hiring, it was crazy.

09:09 - 09:13
It was really hard to find anybody to call to build a digital product.

09:13 - 09:19
Then another year, I mean, 2023, we entered the recession, which heated, like, really hard.

09:19 - 09:20
I mean, so many layoffs.

09:20 - 09:26
And I'm just wondering and and and trying to ask other leaders how do they see and how does

09:26 - 09:30
the organisations, see the 2024? I'm

09:31 - 09:34
I mean, I've been at work for close to a year.

09:34 - 09:39
And before that, I worked for 2 other companies, World Photo and another one called Hecar.

09:40 - 09:45
Heavily funded startups with a lot of growth, great companies, especially Fodo.

09:46 - 09:50
But for me, it didn't make sense the aggressiveness that they have been growing.

09:51 - 09:56
And it's I could understand, there are investors and they need to show results so you get more

09:56 - 10:00
hands on to work on things, hire smart people and move things forward.

10:00 - 10:09
Yeah, it was quite a blow to see, or my last comment, to see all the layoffs, they have to reduce the scale.

10:09 - 10:12
Sadly, it happened out of their control.

10:12 - 10:15
But I think, sadly, it was to be expected.

10:15 - 10:20
For me, it didn't make sense the way many I'm not talking about these 2 companies, but overall

10:20 - 10:22
how aggressive they were hiring.

10:25 - 10:29
The compensation wise and everything, I know I'm going to be like, oh, don't say that.

10:29 - 10:37
But being a Latin American in Berlin and talking with other with people who has, I don't know,

10:37 - 10:45
a PhD and 2 masters, and and then comparing overall salaries and saying, like, okay, I'm really happy.

10:45 - 10:49
It took a lot of work to be here, but there is a lot of disparity.

10:49 - 10:54
I I kind of sense that maybe coming from Latin America and expecting the worst, it was kinda

10:54 - 10:55
expecting for this to happen.

10:55 - 11:03
It it was no surprise because something growing up, everybody in my family started their own companies.

11:03 - 11:06
And so I grew up on this start up mentality.

11:07 - 11:08
Well, they didn't call it startup.

11:08 - 11:09
They just called it companies.

11:10 - 11:14
And it was always about the revenue, and it's about about the point of we call it the point

11:14 - 11:15
of equilibrium or tipping point.

11:15 - 11:18
When you say, like, okay, I'm spending this much, I'm earning this much.

11:18 - 11:20
How long can I hold it?

11:21 - 11:26
My last company, I was I was asking, it's like on this work model, like how do we make profit?

11:27 - 11:29
And this is how I also try to run the teams.

11:29 - 11:36
And ever since I became a lead, Like, how are we becoming profitable without going into intricacies of budget?

11:36 - 11:38
But how are we delivering value? Yeah.

11:38 - 11:39
I don't know if this answers my question.

11:39 - 11:42
The way I see it is it was bound to explode.

11:42 - 11:44
It's the same that happened with real estate.

11:45 - 11:46
It's like loans, loans, loans.

11:47 - 11:50
The companies sorry, the property devalue it there, Anthony.

11:50 - 11:52
Yeah. It makes a lot of sense.

11:52 - 11:57
I fully agree that the market is a bit cleaned off, I would say. And we are getting

11:57 - 12:01
to, like, a healthy approach, right, to hiring.

12:01 - 12:03
In Argentina, it happened the same.

12:03 - 12:06
When we had the economical crash, the second to last, I believe now.

12:06 - 12:10
But in 2,001, I remember, like, the whole economy was in recession.

12:10 - 12:14
This was before the Greek recession. 2 years yeah. 2,001.

12:15 - 12:18
And I remember, like, talking with relatives that have companies and everything.

12:18 - 12:22
They said, like, if you get a loan right now, it's impossible.

12:22 - 12:29
Like it's you got it from like some weird or high rate, it's not good.

12:29 - 12:32
But the money that is on the street, there is money that is well backed up.

12:32 - 12:34
If someone sends a cheque, it's there.

12:34 - 12:38
Someone make a card payment is that because nobody gives credit.

12:38 - 12:42
And I think that now the IT companies, are the same.

12:42 - 12:47
Like the ones who remain strong, like this one, who, by the way, didn't have any lay offs. Mhmm.

12:48 - 12:53
Which is quite a lot. They kept growing. Says a lot.

12:53 - 12:55
Are the ones who are, like, they're really strong.

12:55 - 12:57
They were, like, properly organized.

12:57 - 13:02
And, also, they were lacking because they aim for a model that was sustainable. But, yeah.

13:03 - 13:05
And how do you see this year?

13:05 - 13:07
Are you optimistic or pessimistic?

13:09 - 13:14
I I I see a lot of fates coming up and down. Now everybody's here now.

13:14 - 13:20
Just I was reading about this new technology that I forgot the name that supposedly is going to fully replace engineers.

13:22 - 13:26
Even with all this, I feel like the companies that are remaining are going to continue very

13:26 - 13:29
strong, again, for the same reasons.

13:29 - 13:34
If they survive this latest backlash, they can only grow. But, well, let's see.

13:34 - 13:40
Because also, different elections in different countries right now, and the conflict here, the

13:40 - 13:42
war in Europe, didn't help.

13:45 - 13:47
But, yeah, I feel optimistic.

13:47 - 13:53
If not, we are, like we, software engineers, we will always find, like, a small project and

13:53 - 13:55
something to to move forward.

13:55 - 14:00
Luckily, we are not as tight as other lines of profession that are more dependent on the whole

14:00 - 14:05
ecosystem of the world, of their sorry, of their village, if you will, or the city.

14:05 - 14:07
I can work from anywhere in the world.

14:07 - 14:12
Like, my current limitation is my kid's school right now. That's it. So yeah.

14:12 - 14:17
So one way or another, I think software developers are going to continue moving forward.

14:20 - 14:26
I wanted to tackle the pain points and challenges, after, like, so many years being, like, a leader for engineering teams. Yes.

14:26 - 14:33
I'm wondering, do you can you name, like, some not some widely popular nobody mentioning maybe,

14:33 - 14:36
pain points that you maybe you had or you saw.

14:36 - 14:41
Yes. When when we started, it was when I was 20, it was and this persisted.

14:42 - 14:43
It was the guys from IT.

14:45 - 14:51
Like, these guys with weird t shirts, and they look like the delivery guy, but they are building

14:51 - 14:53
a whole ecosystem in the cloud.

14:54 - 14:57
And we were seeing, like, these were people who are hard to talk to.

14:58 - 15:04
And there is now a tendency, that but still going really slow.

15:04 - 15:10
Where the companies are allowing engineers to have a better understanding of the products that they are building.

15:11 - 15:13
And we are preventing a water falling.

15:13 - 15:16
Basically, let's say business has an idea.

15:16 - 15:18
Then they talk to the designer.

15:18 - 15:19
The designer builds an interface.

15:20 - 15:23
Product manager or owners evolve this.

15:23 - 15:25
And then they get to the engineer.

15:25 - 15:28
The engineer says, I don't know how to build this, or it's going to take 2 years.

15:29 - 15:34
Now many companies are involved in engineering from the beginning and they do like that.

15:34 - 15:35
We all sit on the same table.

15:35 - 15:36
This is what we do here.

15:37 - 15:39
And we try to understand what is the problem space.

15:39 - 15:44
I mean, we can come up and say, look, yes, we can build this whole thing, but what you need

15:44 - 15:47
right now, it's monitoring for these 3 events.

15:48 - 15:51
Here, like, give me an hour. There you go.

15:51 - 15:56
We just bought the project 3 months while we build this, and the the people can continue operate.

15:56 - 16:03
So, but I still see many companies that they tend to ostracize engineers, because they see it

16:03 - 16:08
like the better or bad news. I don't know.

16:08 - 16:13
Like, I have civil engineer friends that work really close with architects and they have amazing

16:13 - 16:20
buildings because they know how much they can push the structure because they have the simulation here right there.

16:20 - 16:25
So what's the difference with with software developers? We understand the possibilities.

16:26 - 16:28
So that is a challenge that is happening.

16:29 - 16:34
Also about understanding the different competencies of communication, like I mentioned earlier.

16:35 - 16:41
There are many companies that still see usually big companies that are not just IT.

16:41 - 16:43
They just have an IT department.

16:43 - 16:49
And they see the production of software like that, like a line of production, which I get it.

16:49 - 16:53
It's not like we are, like, smoking a cigarette and thinking about how we can build something

16:54 - 16:57
or just ringing coffee and coding at night.

16:57 - 17:01
We need to be involved with the company and their needs and the KPIs and everything.

17:01 - 17:08
But it's really hard to get the same output for every single person in the same way. You cannot predict this.

17:09 - 17:14
So that is another challenge that I think us leaders need to be accommodated.

17:14 - 17:16
We have to be the buffer.

17:16 - 17:21
We need to bring engineering to the table, but also we need to make sure that the engineering

17:21 - 17:24
team understand the needs and we find a solution together.

17:25 - 17:29
Because it's no way that we are going to keep the cadence of work the same way across the year.

17:30 - 17:35
Do you have any, like, specific processes or, like, a product that's helping you to build the

17:35 - 17:38
products here at at the vault, like, if you compare to previous organizations?

17:40 - 17:47
That is specific here. Here I really like the way that they allow us a lot of operational freedom.

17:47 - 17:48
They say, look, we need this.

17:48 - 17:50
This is not even, we need this.

17:50 - 17:51
This is the problem space.

17:52 - 17:56
We should provide we should be able to provide this functionality to our customers.

17:59 - 18:01
What do you think? Okay, give me I don't know.

18:01 - 18:03
Give me 2 days, I'll get back to you.

18:03 - 18:04
Or give me some time.

18:05 - 18:07
You come up with that idea.

18:08 - 18:12
You build up the small team, and we work really close with pro leads.

18:12 - 18:18
So here, the managers are colleagues because I think the the word manager is a bit tainted.

18:18 - 18:20
And I this is what I like. What?

18:20 - 18:21
And you come up with a plan.

18:21 - 18:24
You analyse the feasibility, and then you say, okay. What do we need? Okay.

18:24 - 18:33
Maybe we need, like, 2 people that were like this, 2 people that were like that, a designer, another analyst. Okay. Here's the team. Let's see the plan.

18:33 - 18:36
Let's check-in a couple of weeks, and let's move forward. And it's really organic.

18:37 - 18:41
And it's not that I'm shifting people left to right because usually it's not for small projects.

18:41 - 18:47
It's for really long lasting features project that may require years, because but they have

18:47 - 18:49
clear milestones on a high level.

18:50 - 18:53
So the product area is really well organized. It's really well.

18:53 - 18:57
I'm super happy to work on that, and they don't waste time.

18:58 - 19:06
And so that, for me, was a welcoming base because it was something that we did with my former

19:06 - 19:08
head of product when I was head of engineering at HEICAD.

19:09 - 19:11
And we tried to get this process, and we got it going.

19:11 - 19:15
And then and eventually, the company have a setback, a really big one.

19:15 - 19:20
And then I came here and well, I mean, I I was looking forward to this company, and I see it.

19:20 - 19:25
It's already going, and they have a lot of experience, and they have so many iterations on top of it. So that is welcoming.

19:25 - 19:28
Again, it's bringing everybody to the table and don't waste time.

19:28 - 19:33
So is it like, because I read on your on your website blog that you have, like, a product lead.

19:33 - 19:38
You have different roles in the team, and you focus on building, like, specific, like, a feature.

19:39 - 19:42
So, like, small teams responsible for the feature.

19:42 - 19:45
Mhmm. Iterate fast. Iterate fast.

19:45 - 19:48
We have plenty of freedom on the tech stack.

19:48 - 19:51
So we have a decorator. We share a lot.

19:51 - 19:56
But we don't have a top down mandate that it should be built this way. We have engineering principles.

20:00 - 20:01
Obviously, these are like predicated.

20:02 - 20:05
So on the engineering alone side, we have a lot a lot of freedom.

20:05 - 20:08
And then it's basically how the product leads is.

20:08 - 20:13
Like, it might take, and this is the world takes as well, is product set the direction.

20:13 - 20:16
We are the engine that makes the team go move forward.

20:16 - 20:19
Like, the engineers make the code go that way.

20:20 - 20:22
But, it's product who decides.

20:22 - 20:27
Look, we need to get this, and we need x, y, zed, and these are our this is our definition of success.

20:28 - 20:30
Guys, what can we do about this?

20:30 - 20:32
Team, let's work on this together.

20:33 - 20:36
That is really important because it gives the engineer purpose as well.

20:37 - 20:38
They sit on the table.

20:38 - 20:43
And I keep sorry I keep repeating this, but for anybody who gets the reason for this, it's really

20:43 - 20:46
important, especially the new leaders that are in the role.

20:46 - 20:50
They need to understand that you need to work with the pro players and this is the way the world does.

20:51 - 20:57
This is the way that Forto did and Solar Heikar and many other really successful companies. They come as well.

20:57 - 21:03
You mentioned you are, that the company is really open and not closing the way what technology

21:03 - 21:05
to use or language to use. Right?

21:05 - 21:09
But, my experience was, for instance, with the JavaScript developers.

21:09 - 21:11
They are they are really hype driven.

21:11 - 21:15
There are so many things going on on the market, new libraries, new new tech.

21:15 - 21:18
Like, I mean, like, the trick there's something newer each day.

21:18 - 21:22
So, how do you cope with that? Right?

21:23 - 21:30
Well, it's it's tricky because on one side, you really want to build something that lasts.

21:30 - 21:32
So you want to put the best technology there.

21:32 - 21:36
But I think it's all boils down to being practical and removing the ego.

21:38 - 21:42
I something that I ask on interviews is like, how do you understand the difference between a

21:42 - 21:46
say like, let's say, a mid level engineer and a senior engineer?

21:47 - 21:49
And you can always have, like, a senior senior engineer.

21:49 - 21:54
Like, he's this person is about he or she or them is about, to to jump to stuff.

21:55 - 21:59
And they understand that technologies are such tools.

22:00 - 22:04
If you remove the ego from that and you say, like, this tool is doing this, and I can understand

22:04 - 22:08
the issuing principle on this, then they shall move forward with that.

22:08 - 22:15
If you keep updating to the bleeding edge on absolutely everything, You also are on the bleeding

22:15 - 22:21
edge of the updates from the 3rd party tools that you may use or the open source community and

22:21 - 22:23
some technologies come and run fast.

22:23 - 22:26
I remember a couple of years ago, we all needed to.

22:26 - 22:29
We were either you were team Kotlin or team Go.

22:30 - 22:32
And it was a lot of there was a lot of polarization.

22:32 - 22:35
And many companies said no, we need to keep a hard line working on this.

22:37 - 22:39
Technologies are a one way door.

22:39 - 22:41
Like, libraries and small features are 2 way doors.

22:41 - 22:45
Maybe you try it and you see it doesn't work and then you can pull back.

22:45 - 22:47
But why are you adding that tool? What is the sense?

22:47 - 22:52
And that's what the engineer lead, and especially staff engineers, to say, like, are we adding

22:52 - 22:54
it because it look cool or because it's saving us time?

22:54 - 23:00
There are some prototype libraries on Android that, that are experimental, that make some transition

23:00 - 23:06
that are fantastic, But you still need to support things devices that are, I don't know, 5 years

23:06 - 23:12
old for for a person, for a consumer that is a client that wants to order food. Well, okay.

23:12 - 23:14
Maybe don't do the, like, the flashy thing.

23:14 - 23:16
Make sure that it works first.

23:16 - 23:18
So I don't know if this answers the question.

23:18 - 23:20
Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Like, you need to be pragmatic.

23:21 - 23:23
I think an ego in the pocket.

23:23 - 23:28
Yes. Exactly. So why why because the reason is why do you want to add this fancy thing? No. Because it look cool. Yeah.

23:28 - 23:30
Because it's going to look cool in your portfolio.

23:31 - 23:33
But are you really adding value to a customer?

23:33 - 23:35
Are you making your life easier in 6 months?

23:36 - 23:40
Well, you also give some freedom.

23:40 - 23:44
I got the, you know, tell me, Juan, I want to do this this way. Like, why?

23:44 - 23:47
Now trust me, it's going to be good and I think it's going to add value.

23:47 - 23:52
And some things we might evaluate a bit too much.

23:52 - 23:57
But it's also a balance about giving the scenario the possibility to really explore something

23:57 - 24:02
that you know is going to pay back, like, to to have a, sorry, a return of investment, not payback.

24:03 - 24:06
Let's talk different engineering cultures because now you work at the vault.

24:06 - 24:11
Before, you worked at Amazon, at OLX Yes. And at many companies.

24:11 - 24:14
But I think those 3 are really well known.

24:14 - 24:20
And I mean, like, engineering culture between those, those companies, how do you see it?

24:20 - 24:22
Like, what are maybe the main differences?

24:23 - 24:28
So basically, when I moved to Germany, I got the regulator to Amazon.

24:28 - 24:35
It was not the most positive experience because I really connected with the product customer oriented culture.

24:35 - 24:41
But the way the engineering teams were pushed was typical American company that, I mean, you

24:41 - 24:43
stay there and you grow a lot really fast.

24:43 - 24:45
But I didn't connect with that culture.

24:46 - 24:53
I prefer for me, we are not when I'm working with engineers, we are not in the business of delivering software.

24:53 - 24:56
I'm in the business of building cohesive teams.

24:57 - 25:05
And that for me is critical because if you have a way that you can build a team that works in

25:05 - 25:14
the people's based on the people's strengths, and you put their members out of the comfort zone in a normal way.

25:15 - 25:19
And not because they are being overworked, but they are being developed.

25:19 - 25:25
And I'm like learning new things, I'm trying new technologies, and seeing things, you know, from a different perspective.

25:25 - 25:31
If you are able to do that, you can grow a more lasting engineering culture that can deliver value consistently.

25:32 - 25:37
Many companies that are really aggressive with their products, they have more aggressive or

25:37 - 25:40
demanding demand let's call them demanding engineering culture.

25:42 - 25:45
But they rely heavily on new people coming in.

25:46 - 25:53
I so the average tenure that you have in Europe for IT, I think it's a year and a half.

25:53 - 25:55
And then people leave on average.

25:55 - 25:59
Here is 3 years and a half or 3 years 3 months, something like that.

25:59 - 26:03
So more than let's say at least double, which is a no.

26:05 - 26:15
So my take from other companies for example, I also work for when I was for Ad Globant, I worked for Disney and ESPN. Great people, great products.

26:16 - 26:22
I mean, I did parks, I did cruise lines, I did ESPN, all the internal applications, the fantasy games and everything.

26:23 - 26:26
But they were more focused on deliver a specific feature.

26:26 - 26:31
Here on this, let's call it more European centric companies, they're all focused about building

26:31 - 26:34
a culture and a company and I connect more with that.

26:35 - 26:41
Because let's say tomorrow, wall panels, I don't know, SpaceX.

26:41 - 26:47
Any company, SpaceX, comes and buys the company, because they want to make deliveries to them.

26:47 - 26:53
And maybe we end up building guidance systems for the for the rockets to Mars. Okay.

26:53 - 26:57
They they are going to bring us to specialists in aviation, but we will need to build software.

26:58 - 27:02
I know for a fact that the engineers that I have on my team that I'm lucky to work with, they

27:02 - 27:07
could be moved to a project like that, and the guys will be successful Because we try to teach

27:07 - 27:12
them a mentality of how to work, to learn, to step out of their comfort zone, to apply the knowledge

27:12 - 27:15
that they that they got from college and also on the day to day work.

27:16 - 27:20
So if you do have that and you can make like a radical change from the product that you are

27:20 - 27:24
building or a small change, and it's always going to work.

27:25 - 27:29
And this for me is more valuable for the company because if they need to change direction or

27:29 - 27:33
they need you to support another place and another place of the company, you can.

27:34 - 27:39
You're not just, like, shipping, shipping, shipping, shipping, and then, like, someone opens your code.

27:40 - 27:42
I want to ask another question around it.

27:42 - 27:46
So because when I look at the Amazon, it's, like, super customer centric. Right?

27:46 - 27:52
If you are telling me about the vault and I talk with, product leader from Tier Mobility here

27:52 - 27:57
from Berlin, you are talking about, like, it needs to bring the profit for the company.

27:57 - 27:58
It needs to be profitable.

27:58 - 28:02
We're doing this because, like, we want to make money on that.

28:02 - 28:05
It's not like we're doing it because we want to do it. Right?

28:05 - 28:12
So I'm trying to understand, like, for instance, what could Amazon learn from, like, Volt and the European Organization?

28:16 - 28:20
You have to sort on the whiteboard, like, super fast the best way to transform a veterinary

28:20 - 28:24
tree that is unbalanced in with a certain level of complexity.

28:24 - 28:30
And and many companies have this interview process and they put the engineers to work on something

28:30 - 28:33
that is not meaningful or is not engaging.

28:34 - 28:40
So something that I think that many companies, regardless the company, need to understand is

28:40 - 28:44
you invest a lot of hiring, you invest a lot of compensation as well.

28:45 - 28:47
Put the people on the critical path.

28:47 - 28:49
Put the people to work and to bring their value.

28:50 - 28:51
So this is something that we all need to learn.

28:51 - 28:59
And I think many companies, like, let's say, more American mentality that are quite successful,

29:00 - 29:03
please, could use to tap into them.

29:03 - 29:09
But they are rushing so much to deliver value that sometimes some projects kinda are in this limo.

29:09 - 29:11
It's more about shipping than anything else.

29:11 - 29:15
Now on the other side, look at the success that they have.

29:15 - 29:22
So, like, for example, something that I took, and I'm super proud of it, is the way that Amazon

29:22 - 29:26
handles, their own call and operations. It's fantastic.

29:27 - 29:33
They I mean, you can Google it. Spin the wheel process. Fantastic.

29:33 - 29:39
But the story behind the spin the wheel process was several talented engineers, staff engineers,

29:39 - 29:45
decided to try to build a system that will allow us to get proper insights and have everybody

29:46 - 29:49
kind of like a control panopticon and ready to present.

29:49 - 29:52
Because your team could come up any day, and you need to have answers.

29:52 - 29:56
And it was a completely academic way. There is no evil.

29:56 - 29:58
So So it's like, why do you have this peak?

29:58 - 29:59
Why are you doing how are you measuring this?

29:59 - 30:02
Why are you not measuring that? Everybody's in the table.

30:03 - 30:04
So we call her from that.

30:05 - 30:07
I think it's a matter of balance.

30:07 - 30:14
But mainly we all need to understand that we're working with people, and we need to put them on the critical path. That is another question.

30:14 - 30:16
Yeah. That's, it's really well.

30:16 - 30:22
And I can, and I fully agree with that, like, how the Americans are doing it.

30:22 - 30:24
So they are doing, like, really fast, delivery really fast.

30:24 - 30:29
Sometimes when you look from the outside, it's amazing, but from the inside, you look and you say, like, hey.

30:29 - 30:32
Maybe it's a bit too fast, but still, they are successful. So

30:33 - 30:36
I mean but but but the thing is everything comes at a cost.

30:36 - 30:43
If we are, like, super mindful and kumbaya engineering teams, we are not delivering value fast.

30:45 - 30:49
If we are super aggressive and we burn people, I'm not seeing the case for this community, but

30:49 - 30:57
let's say they burn people and when they have a lot of burnout, you are relying on having a constant influx of people.

30:58 - 31:04
I mean, someone like I cannot imagine, like, the work that the the amount of people that they

31:04 - 31:10
recruited from Amazon into process every day because everybody's applied for every single position. Everybody wants to order.

31:13 - 31:14
So it's a matter of balance.

31:15 - 31:16
It's a matter of balance.

31:16 - 31:20
We need to learn how to be customer centric, but everything comes at a price.

31:20 - 31:22
If we are to Kumbaya, we are a must.

31:22 - 31:29
That's why I said, like, let's put the smart people to solve the smart problems and just give them a priority. Let them operate.

31:29 - 31:33
And the longer they stay in your company, the more value they bring.

31:33 - 31:35
Because they understand there's an out.

31:35 - 31:42
There's no it's super expensive to have someone onboarding. It's super expensive.

31:43 - 31:49
Like, for me, initially, to be fully operational in in the core team, One of my teams is core.

31:50 - 31:53
To be, like, fully dependent, 7, 8 months.

31:54 - 31:57
To be on the level that we expect this person to be performing.

31:58 - 32:02
If I born people, like, the moment they're on board, they stay for what?

32:02 - 32:04
For 4, 6 months, and then they leave.

32:05 - 32:11
But we talk a lot, and you mentioned a lot about the people who are really hands on, really

32:12 - 32:16
proactive, like and and you said, like, if you got the projects, for instance, from the SpaceX

32:16 - 32:20
and now you built something completely different, you will do it.

32:20 - 32:25
But there are a lot of projects, like, inside the company, especially if the company is big,

32:25 - 32:26
and you need to run them.

32:26 - 32:32
And not every project is, you know, super sexy, and not everybody is super excited about it.

32:32 - 32:36
So, but, respectfully, I understand your point, but I

32:36 - 32:38
I I know where you're going, and I know you don't mean this.

32:39 - 32:41
But it feels like a generalization.

32:41 - 32:44
For example, I think that there are many ways.

32:44 - 32:46
I don't want to pigeonhole people.

32:46 - 32:48
So I'm going to apply this example to myself.

32:49 - 32:52
But there are many engineers that love greenfield projects.

32:52 - 32:55
In my case, I adopt a refactor. I don't know.

32:55 - 32:58
It's about what part of my personality.

32:59 - 33:03
But if I see a mess, I like to understand the mess, and I like to find.

33:03 - 33:07
I like to decipher the logic, and I like to do this when it's operating.

33:07 - 33:16
I when I join OLX, they have this really big platform and system built in PHP. Yes.

33:16 - 33:17
Let's not laugh at PHP.

33:17 - 33:19
It put bread on my table for many years.

33:19 - 33:21
I did that and I'm happy with it.

33:21 - 33:24
And you can build some really great things if you do it properly.

33:24 - 33:26
Luckily you don't have to anymore.

33:26 - 33:35
So anyway, and my counterpart, my Polish friend that I mentioned, Michal Wasowski, he was doing the greenfield project.

33:35 - 33:39
I mean the guy can operate on anywhere, but they said, like, you know what?

33:39 - 33:40
Let me do the bridge.

33:40 - 33:41
Let me build the vacates.

33:41 - 33:47
Let me do start removing the old system and clean up, clean up, clean up while still being operational.

33:47 - 33:48
And here's the Greenfield project.

33:48 - 33:53
There are engineers who like to mature projects, there are engineers who like the Greenfield

33:53 - 33:57
project and other ones who like to perfect them, like my case.

33:57 - 34:00
So I think it's about putting the right person.

34:00 - 34:08
Right now, for example, my the team I'm responsible for has 12 engineers plus a staff engineer. We continue growing. There are 3 teams.

34:10 - 34:18
And when we when I started it was like this really big daily with 11 people. Sorry, 10 people. Eventually, I grew.

34:18 - 34:22
But it was like, oh, dear god. This is really big.

34:22 - 34:25
Mobile engineers back and front and full stack.

34:25 - 34:32
But when we make the divisions of the team, we try to put the people based on not only on their

34:32 - 34:35
tenure but in when they feel more comfortable to operate.

34:35 - 34:41
Or one of our latest hires, based in Estonia, it's a fully operational guideline.

34:41 - 34:43
He it's up to him.

34:43 - 34:47
He will sit next to the ploughed leader and say okay give me the list of 5:5 shipping.

34:47 - 34:54
And it's doing amazingly on the on calls, handovers, and the trial engineer analysis. He's there.

34:54 - 35:00
He's thinking about the scale infra or a staffing engineer who is basically a code demigod.

35:00 - 35:06
He's working on the core, and the way that we can build our system and protect the volume and everything, he's doing amazingly.

35:07 - 35:08
So it's a matter of competencies.

35:08 - 35:15
But if I bring this super smart, intelligent man to the everyday meetings that I have, he will be depressed.

35:15 - 35:17
Like, he would be unhappy, let's say.

35:18 - 35:22
So it's a matter of finding the right people for for in the right space.

35:23 - 35:28
And many teams have to go to that transition, especially if you started with a small team that created a concept.

35:29 - 35:35
When the concept to a prototype and the prototype is successful, you have a like like a change

35:35 - 35:36
of guard, if you will.

35:37 - 35:41
And usually in my experience around Cinec as a world but on other companies, you have 1 or 2

35:41 - 35:47
of the financial engineers that remain attached, really committed to the project and a lot of new people.

35:48 - 35:55
And if you think as talented as they are, the new people personality wise align, where, like,

35:55 - 36:00
the people that who should have been there, the hustlers to create a project. No. They have different personality.

36:01 - 36:07
I don't know if I would be I'm doing really well at work, but I don't know if I'm the right

36:07 - 36:10
kind of lead to start a project from nothing.

36:11 - 36:17
I'm my based on my experience, I work on more corporate settings when I need to try to understand

36:17 - 36:21
the metering of the tools, the operational scale, working with the business stakeholders.

36:21 - 36:23
I have a different upbringing, if you will.

36:24 - 36:27
So that's the difference that I see.

36:27 - 36:28
Sorry for the long answer.

36:28 - 36:34
No. It's it's great. I think the last thing that you mentioned is, it's good to start another question.

36:34 - 36:40
So because you said, like, I'm not a good leader maybe to start the greenfield project. Right?

36:40 - 36:45
So I would say this is really much your answer, and what I want to what what I want to ask,

36:46 - 36:50
what are your biggest, like, lessons learned that, you know, that each year I feel like each

36:50 - 36:56
year as a as a leader, especially in in tech, you learn something new, and you have this moment. Right?

36:56 - 37:01
So maybe you could mention some moments that were, really important for you and for your career.

37:02 - 37:08
My biggest I have 2. 1 was about my skill set.

37:08 - 37:10
When I moved to Europe, I felt like, yeah.

37:12 - 37:14
I got hired by Amazon. I know everything.

37:14 - 37:16
I don't think I did a good job there.

37:17 - 37:20
I mean, I talked with many other engineers there.

37:20 - 37:22
I was like, no, dude. You were doing great. So, like, yeah.

37:22 - 37:24
But maybe I didn't connect with the culture.

37:25 - 37:30
But that was like okay, first let's kill the ego. You think you know? You know nothing.

37:31 - 37:35
And even if you do know, you cannot come here saying, like, you know everything.

37:35 - 37:36
That was the big uh-huh.

37:37 - 37:44
The second one was when I was at Doel X because I feel like I fell like as a lead, and I went back to coding.

37:44 - 37:46
And when I was hired, they told me, you know what?

37:46 - 37:48
The team doesn't have an an insurance manager.

37:49 - 37:51
The person who was an insurance manager was getting promoted to head.

37:52 - 37:54
That's like the the position is there.

37:55 - 37:58
Whenever you're ready, step in, which I eventually did.

37:59 - 38:04
And in the process, like, let's say, going from the ranks as a senior back end again as a manager,

38:05 - 38:07
I was able to see there were problems.

38:07 - 38:10
Now there's a problem behind the problem behind the problem behind the problem.

38:11 - 38:13
And I saw this on the business side.

38:13 - 38:15
I saw this on the product side.

38:15 - 38:17
I see this on the planning side.

38:17 - 38:20
And I saw this on the personal side of every person on every area.

38:21 - 38:22
That was my second half.

38:23 - 38:30
And the third was showing what is they asked me and this is something that kinda like on a Peter

38:30 - 38:34
Parker Marvel Spider Man thingy with great power comes great responsibility.

38:36 - 38:41
It's after a couple of years and pressure is under your belt and performance reviews and success

38:41 - 38:47
and nice contracts and nice roles and positions and traveling a lot, you realize that you know a lot.

38:47 - 38:51
Like, you know, like, I have other people coming up to ask me, like, how should I do this?

38:51 - 38:52
And so, like, I don't know anything.

38:54 - 38:56
I I my interview process here was like that.

38:56 - 38:57
I needed to present the case.

38:57 - 39:04
I really show my first experience here at work with really specific variables in the middle

39:04 - 39:05
of the work, quite complex.

39:06 - 39:13
And then I realized okay, I know I I certainly know I'm senior enough now. Well, I'm senior enough.

39:13 - 39:17
And it kind of gives you, like, this feeling of speed.

39:18 - 39:21
Then you say, like, I'm operating on a level that I cannot make so many mistakes.

39:22 - 39:24
So it's kind of like you're going downhill.

39:24 - 39:29
It's like speed in full with your bike and then you realize how fast you're going.

39:29 - 39:30
You know you're in control.

39:30 - 39:34
You know everything is fine. But you do realize.

39:34 - 39:39
And you need to keep up on that level, and you realize that you are responsible for a lot of people.

39:39 - 39:42
I I believe in leadership, my servitude.

39:42 - 39:45
That will be the whole closing comment on this answer.

39:46 - 39:53
And if I can have a couple of bad days, but if I systematically fail on doing my job, I'm making

39:53 - 39:59
the life of out of the 12th engineer, probably I'm winning the life for at least half of them.

39:59 - 40:06
If I don't have the right mindset on the 1 on ones, if I don't work properly with our product

40:06 - 40:11
lead, if I'm not responsive enough on the things that I need to do, if I don't plan things properly,

40:12 - 40:16
if I don't do my job well, I'm affecting a lot of people and I don't want that on my conscience.

40:16 - 40:26
So but being able that you need to operate on that and be on that level, it also, like, spills

40:26 - 40:28
to other parts of your of your life.

40:28 - 40:30
You start taking good care of yourself.

40:30 - 40:32
You start, like, doing meditation.

40:32 - 40:34
I do a lot of therapy for since many years.

40:34 - 40:36
I cannot recommend it enough.

40:36 - 40:41
And then you realize, yes, I I'm operating this really big engine.

40:41 - 40:42
I need to be careful.

40:43 - 40:47
So, yeah, on my current process, like, the show was, like, don't worry.

40:47 - 40:48
I won't crash the Ferrari.

40:49 - 40:53
It's the side of the show, referring to a World Cup here in Germany.

40:53 - 40:57
It's like, they crashed the Ferrari because we lost the World Cup. Yeah.

40:57 - 41:07
So I can't you can't cross the Ferrari and you're driving really fast. That was the moment. Oh, god moment. So yeah.

41:08 - 41:10
The last question that I have Yeah.

41:10 - 41:16
It's, can you recommend any books, podcasts, or maybe resources that were particularly helpful for yourself?

41:17 - 41:22
Buy it to our boss phone or wherever you get your books, the daily stoic.

41:22 - 41:26
Because I can talk about many mythologies, so I'm going to say 2 things.

41:27 - 41:29
On the ego part, the daily stoic.

41:30 - 41:34
You make your coffee in the morning, you wake up before anybody in your family and this is what I do.

41:35 - 41:40
Well, I usually go to a gym but when I do it, I have my family so quiet, I do my daily reflection.

41:41 - 41:43
You can do the journal, in the meditation, whatever.

41:43 - 41:47
This is what works for me: coffee and a reflection, like staying humble on that.

41:48 - 41:55
And the second one is try to find your own style of working because I can suggest is, keep mentioning

41:55 - 42:02
this thing that the 3 amigos, everybody on the same table, be an empathetic leader, That might

42:02 - 42:04
work for you, and that might not.

42:04 - 42:09
And maybe based on your personality, you need to be like a super assertive leader that is a

42:09 - 42:11
nice person that is super direct.

42:11 - 42:20
I had I I had one of my best leads, Tech Lead, Marco Soradino, really wise man on so many areas

42:20 - 42:21
of life, especially in engineering.

42:22 - 42:27
He would sit with me, and he said, like, on the core reviews, I like me growing up professionally.

42:29 - 42:30
And he would do the gesture.

42:30 - 42:32
Like, I'm what do you think?

42:35 - 42:39
And usually, when I sit with a person, it's like, I think we should consider the 3 variables.

42:40 - 42:44
And I'm already framing the discussion because I think that this is more convenient, the way I communicate.

42:45 - 42:49
But this great man, he will just be quiet and let me do the work.

42:49 - 42:51
So it depends on you.

42:51 - 43:00
So meditate, be humble, and yes, and I'm pretty sure on your podcast there are a lot of really great books.

43:00 - 43:03
The Managed Path, 1st Break All the Rules.

43:03 - 43:09
Also, I forgot the the authors that I know about, but they are pretty like, if you Google them, you can find them.

43:10 - 43:15
They are fantastic books. 1st protocol the rules if you really want to have 1, but, on the manager path.

43:17 - 43:19
But, yeah, but try to find your style.

43:19 - 43:26
Like, think about what how are you happy operating or doing things and then go into that because

43:26 - 43:31
we'll always be missing some technique or book or reading. I read everything.

43:31 - 43:33
I mean, reading is fun.

43:33 - 43:35
We have a lot of downtime between meetings. Read.

43:37 - 43:42
So to to be honest, like, a lot of what I notice, a lot of experienced guys and leaders with

43:42 - 43:47
whom I talk and I'm making those podcasts, they usually are saying, like, maybe I will surprise

43:47 - 43:53
you and are saying about the stoics, about the philosophy, about the things that are outside

43:53 - 43:56
of the tech bubble and, like, classical things.

43:56 - 43:58
And to be honest, they are the most successful.

43:58 - 44:03
This is what I notice within, like, you know, the the committee with Huang Talk.

44:03 - 44:05
So it makes a lot of sense to me.

44:05 - 44:09
Yeah. I I don't know what I it worked well for me. I humbly present it.

44:09 - 44:17
But, I I mean, I I was lucky enough to go to a couple of talks in the building here from Sarando.

44:17 - 44:20
There was this LGBTQ leader.

44:21 - 44:24
And, she was talking about many topics.

44:24 - 44:27
But one of the topics was about consent in communication.

44:27 - 44:31
Because we always talk about consent Like, okay.

44:31 - 44:35
Do can I hold your hand or like break this barrier or like many things?

44:36 - 44:39
But there is also consent of communication and, I really like this idea.

44:39 - 44:41
And then I said, like, okay.

44:41 - 44:42
I'm going to apply this.

44:42 - 44:45
Who am I communicating with?

44:45 - 44:47
Am I imposing my communication style?

44:47 - 44:50
And then I took that, and then I realized that really improved my one on ones.

44:50 - 44:56
But it's a matter of saying, like, guys, we all code.

44:56 - 44:59
Sometimes we don't know what's going on in production, and we try things.

45:00 - 45:02
So try, measure the result, try again.

45:03 - 45:07
And whatever keeps you driving and moving forward, go for it.

45:07 - 45:08
We have to read about everything.

45:09 - 45:18
The best designers in the world, the best engineers in the world not as we said not a sign that

45:18 - 45:22
I preach to but the strip shops always have like a rather higher engineer that scored 8, but

45:22 - 45:27
also plays guitar and read books, than an engineer that scored 10 and the only thing he does is coding.

45:28 - 45:29
And I think he got that right.

45:30 - 45:36
Again, it's not I know he's really great at selling computers and a great person but, but he

45:36 - 45:38
got that right among many other things.

45:38 - 45:44
We have to be more, renaissance or more holistic as professionals. No issues, everyone.

45:45 - 45:47
Okay. So the last question. Last question

45:47 - 45:49
Yeah. I love this. Thank you.

45:49 - 45:52
Because, you mentioned how you learn.

45:52 - 45:55
So you learn a lot from the mentor, from your leader. Right? Yeah.

45:55 - 46:01
You said about the books outside of the, let's say, the classical scope of the manager or the leader.

46:03 - 46:07
And, for me my experience was, like, I read those books.

46:07 - 46:10
Like, I I read 10 of like tons of business books.

46:10 - 46:15
But what I learned the most are is the experience in my own mistakes, which is maybe Yeah.

46:15 - 46:21
Quite obvious, or I learned from other people talking with them, like, in general, in really loose atmosphere.

46:21 - 46:31
But maybe I was not, lucky enough, but I never learned anything from the organized trainings. Like, any

46:31 - 46:36
anything. Well, because maybe some companies, not everyone.

46:36 - 46:38
Luckily, I was lucky enough on that.

46:39 - 46:40
They they make the trials for compliance.

46:40 - 46:42
They don't make the trials to make you grow.

46:43 - 46:51
And also I tried several platforms And there is this, kind of like easy pill to swallow trainings.

46:53 - 46:55
I don't want to mention any because I think it will be unfair.

46:55 - 47:00
And the second that I saw is, like, take this course about handling disagreement.

47:00 - 47:08
And there was this person, and they bring, like, I know, the chief staff engineer from Microsoft. I was like, yes.

47:08 - 47:15
This person, like, started with Bill Gates, and they presented 5 bullet points, and that's it. Finished course.

47:15 - 47:17
Share a link in our social network.

47:19 - 47:23
Dude, it was like 12 millions. Where's the meat?

47:24 - 47:31
So the last source of knowledge that I got to operate and also to understand the system that

47:31 - 47:35
I'm building, that we are building, I should talk with the engineers.

47:35 - 47:38
I mean, I'm lucky enough to work now with 2 staff engineers.

47:39 - 47:42
I I sit with them like technical handovers.

47:42 - 47:49
I I grab a metaphorical bubble popcorn. Yes. Take me to school. It's fantastic.

47:50 - 47:53
And they are telling you all this information you're missing out on the day to day.

47:53 - 47:57
And there are highly skilled engineers that are able to condense it properly and they are not

47:57 - 48:01
giving me a special class for me, they are talking to engineers so I better keep up.

48:01 - 48:03
So that keeps me on the edge of knowledge.

48:04 - 48:09
And then I talk with the pro plate and it's the same, then I talk with the CTO and try to understand the business need.

48:09 - 48:15
I mean every time I show a company it's I literally ask what is the why are you hiring me? Not not not me.

48:15 - 48:21
What what's the problem that you're trying to solve? And why me? Why me? No. No.

48:21 - 48:25
Because we need an Israeli that is going to be the x y zed. What?

48:25 - 48:28
Any any lead can do that. That is not interesting. No.

48:28 - 48:29
We have this really big product. We don't understand.

48:30 - 48:35
We are in the process of phasing out this this, thing a now to thing b.

48:35 - 48:38
Like we need someone to set a strategy on that. Okay, that's more interesting.

48:39 - 48:40
So who are the people anymore?

48:40 - 48:43
Talk to that that and let's talk to other people. Like, get in deep.

48:44 - 48:46
That's the knowledge that we need to do on the day to day.

48:46 - 48:50
Then the methodology is up to us. Read and talk.

48:50 - 48:52
Yeah, usually, corporate trainings are compliant.

48:53 - 48:57
Awesome. Juan, like, thank you very much for a super interesting talk.

48:57 - 48:58
I really appreciate your insights.

48:58 - 49:01
Thank you for listening to me on my on my runs.

49:02 - 49:04
Better tech leadership powered by Brainhub.

49:06 - 49:11
Follow Les Schick on LinkedIn and subscribe to the Better Tech Leadership newsletter.

Explore similar episodes

James Trunk: From Agile to Shape Up - Lessons Learned in Product Development

In the 100th episode of the podcast, Matt and James Trunk explore the transition from agile methodologies to Basecamp’s Shape Up framework in product development, emphasizing the 5%, 30% feedback rule for enhanced collaboration and psychological safety. They highlight the importance of job stories, retrospective reviews, and the “stabilize” phase in managing technical debt, especially within regulated industries like banking. The discussion also contrasts Fintech’s regulatory demands with startup practices, while reflecting on maintaining company culture and the value of open-source community engagement.

listen now
Luke Rotta: Optimizing Non-Production Environments for Better Developer Productivity

In this episode, Matt and Luke Rotta explore the Fintech industry’s regulatory challenges and their impact on adopting modern software practices like DevOps, highlighting Luke’s success in implementing automation to enhance safety and efficiency. Luke also shares his experience in transforming a traditional support team into a site reliability engineering (SRE) team, emphasizing strategies like clear mission establishment, skill evaluation, and strong communication. The discussion further touches on leveraging AI tools to reduce administrative tasks and improve knowledge acquisition.

listen now
Ady Levy: Tech Leadership Chronicles: Challenges and Strategies

In this episode, Matt interviews Ady Levy about managing tech teams through uncertainty, leveraging skills from Ady’s military background, and the importance of data-driven approaches to resolve team disagreements. The episode also explores emotional management challenges, the thoughtful use of AI, and Ady’s recommended readings for balancing innovation and personal fulfillment.

listen now
Oleksandr Taran: From Idea to Implementation - Lessons in Startup Leadership Search

In this episode, Leszek interviews Oleksandr Taran, CTO of Frienton, who delves into his career journey from a software engineer to a startup co-founder and CTO. Taran emphasizes leveraging his math and computer science background in product development and highlights his current mission to help startups streamline business and financial administration. Oleksandr discusses the challenges of communicating complex technical concepts to business professionals, stressing the importance of translating these ideas into accessible language through analogies and clear explanations.

listen now