[ BETTER TECH LEADERSHIP ]

Beyond Hierarchies: Cultivating a Transparent Feedback Culture

[ THE SPEAKERS ]

Meet our hosts & guests

Leszek Knoll
CEO, BRAINHUB

Over the last decade, Leszek has developed several successful businesses, among them a software development agency that supports Fortune 500 companies. With the challenges a growing business brings, he observed that stepping out of a tech role into a leadership one brings the need for a different approach. As a host of the Better Tech Leadership podcast, Leszek is focused on bridging the gap between tech and people skills.

Marc Furrer
Head of Sales Engineering

Marc Furrer is an accomplished sales engineering leader with a robust background in financial technology and risk management solutions. Currently, he serves as the Head of Sales Engineering at Upvest, based in Winterthur, Switzerland. Prior to this role, Marc held senior positions at FNZ Group, where he was instrumental in operations, delivery, and client management across the DACH region and Italy. His earlier career includes leadership roles at SunGard (now part of FIS), where he managed professional services and pre-sales teams across the Americas and EMEA.

Transcript

00:00:22,485 --> 00:00:30,550
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, still, I'd like to ask why are are you interested in the these concepts of self management,

00:00:30,550 --> 00:00:33,690
self organizations, or basically these Turkas Organizations?

00:00:34,230 --> 00:00:35,750
Why is it interesting for you?

00:00:35,750 --> 00:00:43,155
Speaker 2: Why? So I think main background was that I often, like, sometimes things come multiple times

00:00:43,155 --> 00:00:46,774
in your life, but there was like a person or a friend that go play squash.

00:00:47,130 --> 00:00:53,210
So he had this book, like on self organization from Nadu, where it's basically, he talked about it.

00:00:53,210 --> 00:00:54,329
He mentioned it like once.

00:00:54,329 --> 00:00:55,864
I was like, okay, that's probably super Great. Let me

00:00:55,864 --> 00:00:56,745
Speaker 1: get a good English.

00:00:56,745 --> 00:01:00,125
Speaker 2: Exactly. That's probably super boring. I was like, okay.

00:01:00,425 --> 00:01:05,610
Then later, he mentioned it again, and then I was like, in our company, I felt like it probably

00:01:05,610 --> 00:01:12,110
could improve some things, but I wasn't really sure what and, and, and maybe how.

00:01:12,485 --> 00:01:14,345
So then decided to buy the book.

00:01:15,284 --> 00:01:20,650
Now I read chapter number 1, and I was like, first a bit bored to not to death, but I was like,

00:01:21,610 --> 00:01:24,330
this something is boring, but I just kept reading.

00:01:24,330 --> 00:01:31,354
And then I started chapter 2, and I was like sucked in because I always was challenged being

00:01:31,354 --> 00:01:35,515
in like organizations with hierarchy and being doing these performance reviews.

00:01:35,515 --> 00:01:39,615
And then people come there, you have to rate them like in a school system.

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Do I have now the best grade, not the best grade?

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How do I compare it to others?

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And the manager is kind of the judge from the outside rather than the person their self reflect

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like, hey, what's our purpose in this organization?

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How well did I do?

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Could I do any better?

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And not this judgmental thing.

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Someone from the outside has to grade them, and then also make it obviously salary relevant.

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And then people being frustrated because you don't see the world as they see it.

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It's always felt that's a lot of frustration when you manage people.

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And when I read self organization, I was like, this is exactly what I wanna work in, because

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if you have people around, everyone has their goal, their clear role, and they can take ownership,

00:02:23,165 --> 00:02:28,845
there's no one to blame, and you also work together in a collaborative mode and not someone

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who's kind of like this judgment person.

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And I never liked it as a manager.

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I always thought that you need to give people space.

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Intrinsic motivation is important, and they have to take responsibility, and they have to be

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able to make mistakes, because through mistakes, you learn.

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But I was, I always felt like, why is there no better way, but I couldn't have conceptualized

00:02:48,459 --> 00:02:52,400
myself, yeah, concepts such as self organization.

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And when I read this, if all these examples from these companies, how they treat their people,

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how they work, and how they do it, it got me really excited.

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And then I basically explore them more and also find them.

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Of course, I did in Switzerland on, on, on going teal, self organization and companies.

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And I also was actually researching.

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I wrote the search for companies in Switzerland who do self organization was mainly holacracy.

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I wrote these companies, and I was surprised how many people are actually responding and say,

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I will talk to you.

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I had 1 hour talks with them.

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I had my questions, why they implemented holacracy, advantages, disadvantages, what do you have to pay attention?

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That's how basic I came into that topic.

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And I still think it's it's for me, a very goal I wanna achieve that sometime that some part

00:03:45,375 --> 00:03:49,775
work in a company where you can do that, but I also know it's not just easy by saying, like,

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yeah, now we are self organized, organized. What does it mean?

00:03:53,690 --> 00:03:55,050
And how is it implemented?

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It's probably it's it's 2 things to, to, to get there, but it's, it's definitely, probably,

00:04:01,595 --> 00:04:04,815
yeah, could mean a lot of fun for the people working there.

00:04:05,115 --> 00:04:08,155
And that's what you also get as a feedback when you talk to these companies.

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It's only so one of the same.

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Most of them have the same feedback.

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Speaker 1: What what what what was the feedback?

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Like, main takeaways, both in terms of advantages and disadvantages?

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Speaker 2: So I think the main takeaway was that, I think, they increased the the the ownership of the

00:04:26,450 --> 00:04:29,350
people, but also the motivation and the satisfaction.

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So most of the companies, all of them who kept I mean, obviously, some of them, they stopped

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the experiments because from some whatever reason that the environment didn't work, and the

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ones I interviewed, obviously, they succeeded, but they all said it's basically people wanna work for us.

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They don't wanna leave because they enjoy it so much.

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And we actually get people who apply because we are following style of organization.

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And it's also that you can see these companies, they're actually having blocks.

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So have you ever seen a company having a block on the matrix organization? Oh, great.

00:05:02,970 --> 00:05:08,535
We have matrix in place, and it's all no one blocks about that apart from maybe some consulting

00:05:08,675 --> 00:05:14,855
companies, but the company themself, writing about that concept on a blog, which is unrelated

00:05:14,995 --> 00:05:23,070
to their business, shows how much it means for the employers who actually write these blog posts and talk about it.

00:05:23,290 --> 00:05:28,965
And I think that's like a very like element, which, which was once great advantage.

00:05:29,345 --> 00:05:34,590
The other one, a person said it was a manager before, so like, basically there's stuff happening

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I could have never invented and dream of before because the management would have come up with

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that, because otherwise, how would someone take the initiative exactly?

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And now people taking initiative, and I would have never dreamed of what's all coming out of

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that, but I also had to learn to kind of step away and let people do whatever they do.

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But I think overall, the outcome is better.

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And I think most of these companies say they are better off because of self organization.

00:06:03,675 --> 00:06:09,650
I think one specific example, which probably a lot of larger corporations say, yeah, but it

00:06:09,650 --> 00:06:12,470
is never work, holacracy or self organization.

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I mean, there's plenty of large organization who, who implemented it and were super successful,

00:06:17,925 --> 00:06:24,645
but also interviewed a company in Switzerland who was part of a large, basically holding in

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India, like a consulting company, which bought them.

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And one element that also thing, with a couple of 100 people in Switzerland, one rule, one agreement

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that when they bought, they can keep holacracy.

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So that was written in the agreement. So they kept it.

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And now what they can see, this Switzerland unit with self organization, outperforms all the

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other units in that organization, more and more, actually they're approached by the model company

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and they ask, like, can you take over that business and implement the same you did?

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Because they do financially better, they do motivation wise better.

00:07:02,939 --> 00:07:04,699
So like everywhere, they're actually on the top.

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And that to me also shows that then the other company actually works pretty much hierarchical,

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obviously up to that unit where they can do self organization.

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And that shows that actually there is a lot of value if it's implemented right.

00:07:19,310 --> 00:07:21,070
Speaker 1: We spoke about it a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It was worth I think the the same thing as if someone ever does sport or doesn't is not in shape.

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And they said like, oh, I wanna be in shape and I wanna eat healthy.

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Like, okay, what do you have to do?

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You might have to start exercising on a more regular basis, and you might have to change your eating habits.

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And these are things you did for years, maybe for some of the people since they've grown up,

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because their parents didn't know how to maybe didn't exercise.

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Maybe they, they, they cooked in a certain way that the meats were heavy and not as, as, as healthy, like fruits, vegetables.

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So to change that is not easy.

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You won't get up just the next morning, like, yeah, I, I, I'm, I'm all fine doing my sport.

00:08:00,990 --> 00:08:04,065
I'm all fine eating eating the right way.

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It takes a lot of work, and you have fallbacks, but you still have to believe in that goal.

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And for a lot of people, maybe where you start at the point where you have no clue how to accomplish

00:08:14,669 --> 00:08:17,729
that, because I haven't seen it, how it's done.

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I have not a brother or sister who accomplished that, so I can go and ask them.

00:08:23,205 --> 00:08:28,069
You might also wanna like hire a coach because like often the beginning, it's hard.

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And if someone reminds you, reminds you on a constant basis, say, have you done your exercises? Can you do this?

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Shows a bit tips and tricks to how you move yourself to that state that it becomes natural. It's it's hard work.

00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:47,740
And the thing for a lot of companies, if you start and do it yourself, you might still a bit

00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:52,655
locked in the old patterns, and then it can be pretty quickly to say it's not working.

00:08:52,655 --> 00:08:54,675
People are not, they don't take responsibility.

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They're not stepping up, or maybe this because the person who had maybe let go of the, the authority

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or get distributed a bit more of the, the, the power of making decisions, He's not willing to do that.

00:09:08,255 --> 00:09:15,535
And I think an outside person can better call these out than the people before who may be reported to that person.

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So it's kind of a bit that transformation, I think, is quite critical.

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And the companies I talked to, most of them actually said that a coach was very beneficial,

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and most of them recommended a coach for the 1st couple of months to just help putting things in motion.

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But it's the same once you're then crawling, once you're walking, and then from walking to running,

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that's that you can then do yourself.

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But it's this initial, probably, phase, which is crucial because obviously people who say it

00:09:46,415 --> 00:09:51,850
won't work, you will hear that constantly, the templates you'll say, or people who were managing

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before, obviously they scared to lose their job.

00:09:54,870 --> 00:10:00,985
So you will have people say it's not working because I still wanna have my 20 people reporting to me.

00:10:00,985 --> 00:10:03,785
I don't wanna get rid of that. They will fight that.

00:10:03,785 --> 00:10:07,725
And so it's kind of like, I think, a crucial element to bring these people along.

00:10:08,700 --> 00:10:14,720
And also, if you have an outside perspective, I think that the chances of success are are larger, in my opinion.

00:10:17,055 --> 00:10:23,074
Speaker 1: The companies that you spoke with, do they fall in, do they have something in common besides

00:10:23,134 --> 00:10:25,875
introducing that model of, operational governance?

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Like, are they, I don't know, service providers?

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Are these I mean, technically, if you read Lado and you go and search,

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Speaker 2: It should be not making a difference in the industry because there's also examples in, in the

00:10:41,985 --> 00:10:45,204
book where it's in industrial blue collar and wherever.

00:10:46,089 --> 00:10:52,089
I think what I found is a lot of people are in Switzerland, most companies are close to like

00:10:52,089 --> 00:10:57,185
some sort of digital agency, something related to software.

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And also usually, because scrum was implemented, I mean, to some extent, from this is self organization

00:11:03,565 --> 00:11:10,850
concept, because, yeah, you have certain things you have to do, certain elements in scrum, but

00:11:10,850 --> 00:11:15,615
it's actually self organizing, because you have a team, they have certain roles, they have responsibilities,

00:11:16,154 --> 00:11:21,750
and they have a maybe common goal, but each person brings their specific role into it.

00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:28,080
So a lot of, I could see it also being very natural for a company which is active in the software

00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:34,405
space to make that step, because they already know, to some extent, elements of self organization

00:11:34,705 --> 00:11:39,685
and agility to through scrum or, or kanban or whatever concept they're using.

00:11:40,220 --> 00:11:48,865
So also the, the comp is the most I found were actually in, in the space, which is more closely related to software. If you

00:11:48,865 --> 00:11:54,625
Speaker 1: look globally, there's much more companies that operate in an innovative way, not top down,

00:11:54,625 --> 00:12:00,010
not chain of command, specifically in software or specifically in the fields that require a lot of innovation.

00:12:00,630 --> 00:12:03,930
I think it's just, I think one one

00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:12,665
Speaker 2: misconcept in the entire, like, management space, so treating treating human beings, I think,

00:12:12,665 --> 00:12:20,700
is that people believe if you don't have, if you're not well educated, you can make your own decisions.

00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:26,685
I kind of like, I think it's more natural for people to be like, yeah, they have all these smart people.

00:12:26,685 --> 00:12:28,305
They started at top universities.

00:12:28,445 --> 00:12:30,625
I mean, they should be capable of doing that.

00:12:31,029 --> 00:12:35,449
They're more like prone to be like, yeah, they can self organize as they should be able.

00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:40,345
Then if you maybe walk into factory, you think, yeah, but to have like an, maybe they did an

00:12:40,345 --> 00:12:44,765
apprenticeship, some people just had not even an apprenticeship to learn on the job.

00:12:45,385 --> 00:12:53,009
And I think that also for me, it's, I totally believe it's a misconcept because everyone has

00:12:53,009 --> 00:12:57,665
to live life, and to live life, you need to be, to some extent, self organized.

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You have to do certain things to like run your family and all this.

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And I think everyone, every human being is capable of that.

00:13:05,790 --> 00:13:11,230
But I think when you make a decision, people still feel that for whatever reason, people with

00:13:11,230 --> 00:13:13,630
a higher education should be more capable of doing that.

00:13:13,630 --> 00:13:19,225
And that's why also to your point, probably, companies in the field, where it's either innovative

00:13:19,365 --> 00:13:25,570
work, where it's maybe soft, where it's more agility, to some extent, maybe have more people

00:13:25,570 --> 00:13:28,710
with higher education, and then feel like, oh, but we yeah.

00:13:28,770 --> 00:13:29,970
They should be able to do that.

00:13:29,970 --> 00:13:36,505
Let let's try, versus when you go into an industrial setup that they might feel like maybe the hurdles are too high. I mean

00:13:36,665 --> 00:13:39,110
Speaker 1: Interesting. I think I think it's not about education.

00:13:39,250 --> 00:13:45,670
I, I also believe it's about competencies in a specific field, plus mindset, plus appropriate

00:13:46,255 --> 00:13:48,995
leadership and some other things that come into play.

00:13:49,215 --> 00:13:56,340
So it's, it's about competencies in a specific field that is related to the company business and the mindset. Sure. But what

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Speaker 2: I meant was more like, if you walk in and if you ask like maybe a 1,000 people and you ask,

00:14:02,900 --> 00:14:06,105
oh, where there are a bunch of lawyers, and they have the factory.

00:14:07,125 --> 00:14:12,500
Now we have the concept where you can decide there's the chain of command, like people are told

00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:14,839
what to do versus people can self organize.

00:14:15,779 --> 00:14:19,320
And you will ask them like, okay, where is the higher probability?

00:14:19,540 --> 00:14:21,725
Where would you trust that the concept would work?

00:14:21,725 --> 00:14:23,425
What would most people choose?

00:14:24,685 --> 00:14:28,045
Probably, or an engineer or whatever is in a car factory.

00:14:28,045 --> 00:14:33,880
Doesn't, I mean, they, they just do the thing on the thing, but the fact is what they do.

00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:40,475
And that also shows a bit like, what we, what, what, what, that they know their job, what they do.

00:14:40,475 --> 00:14:44,635
And it's not that you tell them to be a lawyer, but you basically tell them you can, you have

00:14:44,635 --> 00:14:47,810
more responsibility around the job you do, and they know their job.

00:14:47,810 --> 00:14:53,170
And that's kind of a big, but I think that's also a bit of a mindset, what people believe someone is capable of.

00:14:53,170 --> 00:14:58,274
And I think every human being is capable of, obviously, some people do better in that environment

00:14:58,274 --> 00:15:04,435
and some less, and it's also a bit like, yeah, some bit also about personality and that you

00:15:04,435 --> 00:15:09,640
feel it's safe enough to fail because in a self organization need to give to people, the feel

00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,100
that they can also fail.

00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:17,415
If you obviously punish every mistake, like you won't get anyone who takes responsibility because

00:15:17,415 --> 00:15:19,495
every time they do, they feel I only get punished.

00:15:19,495 --> 00:15:24,680
So it needs to be some environment like at home, when you raise kids, they need to be able to

00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,500
fail, they need to be able to learn, and then they can excel.

00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:35,085
Speaker 1: Building the trust to the managers or other people, that it's safe to fail, It's not that easy

00:15:35,465 --> 00:15:43,310
because we we, I, like, I I meet that problem every now and then because people say, like, look.

00:15:43,310 --> 00:15:49,390
You say it's safe to fail, but in my previous jobs, it was always said that safe to fail, but

00:15:49,390 --> 00:15:50,610
it was until it wasn't.

00:15:51,135 --> 00:15:53,935
And I think it's it's about the trust, you also

00:15:54,175 --> 00:15:55,775
Speaker 2: It's true, but you have to build the trust.

00:15:55,775 --> 00:16:00,500
I mean, like, with some I mean, what you could implement is kind of the shit happens Friday,

00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:05,839
like on Friday, you meet, and people talk about all their failure and they get applauded for

00:16:05,839 --> 00:16:09,295
making a mistake and they have a drink and they can be there.

00:16:09,515 --> 00:16:16,655
And maybe as a CEO, the first and say, yeah, Monday, I I sent a wrong email to the wrong customer

00:16:16,875 --> 00:16:24,400
and whatever, like, whatever you did to be like, some people call it, and, yeah, let's say shit happens.

00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:25,600
Friday sounds a bit better.

00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:31,375
They're all the worst trip, but, but they celebrate that, and it doesn't have to be a negative

00:16:31,375 --> 00:16:36,415
thing because the outcome was also like that then it's not just say, like, the mistake I made,

00:16:36,415 --> 00:16:38,019
but what have I I learned from that?

00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,240
And what was my solution?

00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,199
And kind of like people can be like, yeah, I had a mistake.

00:16:43,199 --> 00:16:46,180
There was this huge setback. It was freaking embarrassing.

00:16:47,665 --> 00:16:50,305
I sent a letter to the wrong customer.

00:16:50,305 --> 00:16:55,525
I was so embarrassed and but I realized our quality, we'd be at certain checks are missing.

00:16:55,950 --> 00:16:59,170
So the lesson we basically changed x, y, and zed.

00:16:59,310 --> 00:17:04,325
And instead of people getting like, oh, why did it happen? Whose mistake was it?

00:17:05,125 --> 00:17:08,725
People celebrate that, that we, we learned something and we can move on.

00:17:08,725 --> 00:17:16,780
And I think that, that can change that, that setting, because obviously people have to see that

00:17:16,780 --> 00:17:23,120
you can do failure until they trust, oh, this company is actually, I got celebrated on Friday once a month.

00:17:23,934 --> 00:17:29,455
If I go up to the podium and I tell stuff which happened and how we learned and people doing

00:17:29,455 --> 00:17:33,220
that, and everyone is thinks access. It's a great event.

00:17:33,220 --> 00:17:37,620
And rather being like, these, these people make mistakes.

00:17:37,620 --> 00:17:46,475
And so it's kind of like a transition, which needs to happen on, on mistakes happen because they're happening. And you're right.

00:17:46,475 --> 00:17:54,299
Like often in a lot of companies, you feel like also we were prone and raised, maybe. Something happens at home.

00:17:54,299 --> 00:17:55,980
Like, what's the first question I ask?

00:17:55,980 --> 00:17:57,659
I'm not saying I'm doing well.

00:17:57,659 --> 00:17:59,105
It's like, oh, who did that?

00:17:59,105 --> 00:18:01,425
Like, then usually you ask first the little one.

00:18:01,425 --> 00:18:02,145
No, I didn't do it.

00:18:02,145 --> 00:18:05,665
Then the older one, and you then immediately think, oh, it wasn't the little one.

00:18:05,665 --> 00:18:06,805
It was the old one.

00:18:07,020 --> 00:18:11,260
And then you realize maybe your wife says, yeah, something spilled.

00:18:11,260 --> 00:18:16,985
I was just about to to to whatever, but it's just in his reaction and it's so much ingrained

00:18:17,045 --> 00:18:18,085
the way we were raised.

00:18:18,085 --> 00:18:23,260
And then obviously what we carry into the companies and also what the people who found companies

00:18:23,260 --> 00:18:25,120
and manage companies bring in.

00:18:25,580 --> 00:18:31,365
If you weren't allowed to do mistakes in your home and in your school or whatever, like likely

00:18:31,365 --> 00:18:32,804
the company's not that place.

00:18:32,804 --> 00:18:39,090
So there needs to be a change, but if you were that we want to create that there's the ability to change.

00:18:39,090 --> 00:18:44,929
But first, you need to be aware that you can then put the focus and the energy on it to kind of like address it.

00:18:44,929 --> 00:18:46,950
And as long as you're not aware, obviously.

00:18:48,274 --> 00:18:53,575
Speaker 1: And it probably should start from the leadership, and, go down, that leadership.

00:18:53,715 --> 00:18:55,075
Speaker 2: I think that's most of the time.

00:18:55,075 --> 00:18:57,230
Like, obviously, if, yeah, you're right.

00:18:57,230 --> 00:19:04,485
Like if someone was maybe still deemed not as being maybe in the leadership or talks about mistakes

00:19:04,545 --> 00:19:07,505
and then management puts them down, it will never work.

00:19:07,505 --> 00:19:12,649
But if management steps up and writes an email like, yeah, we had this incident, it was caused

00:19:12,649 --> 00:19:18,169
by me, or we, we figured that out, and I think this is awesome. Well done, guys.

00:19:18,169 --> 00:19:23,375
It's kind of like, and it takes, you need to build up the trust, but I think it's doable.

00:19:24,075 --> 00:19:27,730
It's just more about how much you're committed going the way.

00:19:27,730 --> 00:19:34,885
And obviously in self organization, leadership wants to make transition, but often that is also

00:19:34,885 --> 00:19:39,365
like personal change on their side because they may be realized the way I was running the company

00:19:39,365 --> 00:19:40,885
before it just stressed me out.

00:19:40,885 --> 00:19:45,770
There were certain things I actually, and they also often do a certain transformation as long

00:19:45,770 --> 00:19:51,765
as also the people going along, because you need to talk to each other from the, you need different

00:19:51,765 --> 00:19:58,060
skills to work in an environment, I think, and that, yeah, it will benefit everyone, even the

00:19:58,060 --> 00:20:03,420
customers from the company, the families from the people who work there, because you have to

00:20:03,420 --> 00:20:07,465
have a different mindset and a different way of being and working with your child.

00:20:09,285 --> 00:20:11,845
Speaker 1: I think we were talking about sort of different concepts.

00:20:11,845 --> 00:20:17,820
We we are also exploring a little bit of self management, a little bit of self organizing, but

00:20:17,820 --> 00:20:28,155
I wanna get your thoughts on what what is the scope of the decisions that people make with an organization, within Teams.

00:20:28,990 --> 00:20:34,830
Speaker 2: I think I think it depends it depends on the on where the the organization is in.

00:20:34,830 --> 00:20:41,235
For example, our company I work for, we acquired, like, 3 banks in the last couple of years

00:20:41,235 --> 00:20:44,455
in Germany, and you're regulated under Buffin.

00:20:44,754 --> 00:20:52,260
Buffin has certain expectations who can be in charge, who'd be in charge for, for certain elements.

00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:58,295
And obviously, it wouldn't be possible to go out and sometimes say like certain elements where

00:20:58,295 --> 00:21:02,855
someone has has to, has a certain background to make a decision can then be taken by anyone.

00:21:02,855 --> 00:21:09,520
So obviously, they need to maybe be tied to certain roles, or you also need to implement certain

00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,904
checks and balances to be there for the regulator.

00:21:13,904 --> 00:21:16,465
And you can do that by maybe mapping the roles.

00:21:16,465 --> 00:21:22,900
So the regulator expects to see certain roles and you then have people who have this external

00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,200
role name that the regulator feels comfortable.

00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,520
Oh, there's someone who's responsible for that.

00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,425
That person might have more, yeah, competent and might have multiple roles.

00:21:31,425 --> 00:21:36,705
And also in this, on certain settings, obviously there's limitations. You can limit roles.

00:21:36,705 --> 00:21:43,149
You can say like that role, that team can decide up until a certain amount, everything above,

00:21:43,370 --> 00:21:45,529
obviously there's also in Salesforce. There's still a CEO.

00:21:45,529 --> 00:21:48,045
There's still someone out there who gives a bit the direction.

00:21:49,005 --> 00:21:55,485
There might be things where you say above that, a second person needs to weigh in and needs

00:21:55,485 --> 00:21:57,745
to give approval or needs to be consulted.

00:21:58,030 --> 00:22:03,490
That that's very normal because some people have, maybe also financially, certain limitations.

00:22:03,710 --> 00:22:10,165
It doesn't mean self organization has to mean, we give everything away and people, if the role

00:22:10,165 --> 00:22:13,990
can decide everything, you can have, like, you can limit that.

00:22:13,990 --> 00:22:18,550
And I think that also has to fee figured out for each company, how it works best.

00:22:18,550 --> 00:22:24,655
I think it's almost like a, I mean, if you speak holacracy, what they say, it's more like a

00:22:25,115 --> 00:22:29,035
a operating system for certain hardware as the company is the hardware.

00:22:29,035 --> 00:22:33,630
That's the operating commit, but the operating system can also be configured.

00:22:34,090 --> 00:22:36,890
It's not that you go in and say like, oh, we have to follow everything.

00:22:36,890 --> 00:22:42,825
If some things don't work, adjust them, find different ways to like go through the more important

00:22:42,825 --> 00:22:49,660
thing is to mindset and the principles to be like, this is what we want to accomplish, but then find your own way.

00:22:49,660 --> 00:22:56,675
Because the same with scrum, you should go around and you interview people about, you get so many different answers.

00:22:56,675 --> 00:22:57,635
What is scrum for you?

00:22:57,635 --> 00:23:04,230
And then you're like, company A says the following and then company B, and then you go back

00:23:04,230 --> 00:23:09,290
to the, the, the, the original principles from scrum, you would think, but if you read them,

00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:15,255
but no, it's like people took these concepts and then take some pieces, adjust some pieces,

00:23:15,255 --> 00:23:23,640
maybe ignore some and still call it scrum, despite probably the, the, the original people who

00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,720
started with scrum would say, this is not scrum.

00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:31,425
They would still call it scrum just because it's the buzzword, but I think that's similar to like self organizations.

00:23:31,565 --> 00:23:33,025
You have to find your way.

00:23:33,245 --> 00:23:34,765
You don't have to be orthodox alert.

00:23:34,765 --> 00:23:39,460
I don't think so because otherwise it would be hard because some things might be adjusted to

00:23:39,460 --> 00:23:43,000
be successful, and if you're too strict, it just might fail.

00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:48,865
Speaker 1: Like distributing the decision power and ownership about our control about specific areas, I think it's critical.

00:23:49,645 --> 00:23:52,065
We're still struggling with some aspects of that.

00:23:53,085 --> 00:23:59,390
Speaker 2: But I think also is important, what he also mentions, like on the OKRs is still, obviously,

00:23:59,390 --> 00:24:06,045
I think when you say do you have a certain people with competency, I I think you phrased it the following.

00:24:06,045 --> 00:24:09,825
So we have certain people with competency, they issue 2 strategy.

00:24:11,005 --> 00:24:17,070
My thing is just a bit around like, but what if you open it up?

00:24:17,070 --> 00:24:22,110
Do you say these are the roles and we have people who do you think that people applying who

00:24:22,110 --> 00:24:25,915
are actually not good at strategy or don't like it?

00:24:25,915 --> 00:24:31,775
I mean, that's in a separate discussion, but I feel like by, what I would be careful is by obviously

00:24:31,980 --> 00:24:37,280
excluding and deciding who can do it, that you might have very talented people you don't see,

00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:41,655
but if you don't make it open, you will never see their interest.

00:24:41,875 --> 00:24:46,035
Obviously it's in a different discussion when they have interest, they get a certain role, and

00:24:46,035 --> 00:24:50,530
then you realize when we produce output, they do stop producing, then you have to have the discussion.

00:24:50,590 --> 00:24:57,845
But I think always like when you make a decision to some extent from top down, the group's fine,

00:24:57,845 --> 00:25:01,465
but who's in the group. That's okay.

00:25:02,325 --> 00:25:08,110
I just say like, usually you might lose out potential on people who have a huge talent, but

00:25:08,110 --> 00:25:13,710
they feel like I can't be part of this group because the group was already made by these people.

00:25:13,710 --> 00:25:16,835
And then you basically silence the voice.

00:25:17,695 --> 00:25:21,935
By me saying that doesn't mean everyone has to be everywhere, because otherwise, then the cop is not running.

00:25:21,935 --> 00:25:23,135
I mean, that's just not working.

00:25:23,135 --> 00:25:28,650
Some people need to do finance, their strategy, there's obviously the implementation work, there's

00:25:29,030 --> 00:25:37,155
the customer acquisition work, but I just feel often by sometimes making decisions by who can

00:25:37,155 --> 00:25:42,740
be part of the crew, but not make it open at actually people know there is this group, there

00:25:42,740 --> 00:25:47,299
is certain open roles that they can step up and also say they potentially have interest.

00:25:47,299 --> 00:25:53,655
That doesn't mean that they can just pee in that group or take that role, that you might lose

00:25:53,655 --> 00:25:55,755
people who, who, who have talent.

00:25:56,250 --> 00:26:01,929
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think this is this is a trade off because on one hand, you want

00:26:01,929 --> 00:26:07,395
to get, like, use this knowledge that you have in this side of team, this mindset, etcetera,

00:26:07,774 --> 00:26:12,720
but you also wanna be effective in making decisions, making them fast, making them accurate,

00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,900
making mistakes, but like learning from them.

00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:25,115
For me, the tricky part, is twofold. 1st, not everyone is trained or skilled in in thinking in abstract ways.

00:26:25,255 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, what I meant more was like the channel, I do believe that people are drawn often

00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:39,145
to also what maybe their motivation is, the intrinsic motivation, especially if you start creating

00:26:39,205 --> 00:26:42,164
environment where it's not about the ranks and who has power.

00:26:42,164 --> 00:26:47,190
And then having one belief like, I need to go up, I need to rise, I need to more, and they start

00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:53,965
doing stuff they actually hate, but they're still doing it because, because of the fame they

00:26:53,965 --> 00:26:59,880
have, which is then completely wrong because everyone below them, if they have reporting lines will be in pain.

00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:06,059
But I feel like if you have an environment where people can really bring in their talent and

00:27:06,815 --> 00:27:09,554
take also things they really have true interest.

00:27:10,655 --> 00:27:14,595
And then, no, it's not just a company where, yeah, I have true interest that take something.

00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:20,340
And then I sit around and do nothing, but there is also results are expected, which is okay. Cause we have goals.

00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:27,945
I do believe that if people pick stuff or do things they're truly motivated, that the outcome

00:27:27,945 --> 00:27:33,799
is like, is so much higher than if you hire someone who's maybe just they hired in that role

00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:37,755
and you're like, I don't know if she'd like it, but now how do I get out of it?

00:27:37,915 --> 00:27:41,595
How do I tell the company I'm not made for this role?

00:27:41,595 --> 00:27:47,250
Because would then the consequence be I get fired, So people start being quiet and if you can

00:27:47,250 --> 00:27:53,145
create them, so like we have, like, we, we have certain roles, like we have certain things and

00:27:53,145 --> 00:27:59,785
people are interested, they can basically come in and be part of that is very motivating for them.

00:27:59,785 --> 00:28:05,560
And the same thing, I think, in, in new companies also, like in, like, technically you can have

00:28:06,740 --> 00:28:11,355
people who constantly work with the consultant, and they might, they might be some meetings

00:28:11,415 --> 00:28:14,555
or some monthly meeting going around around sales.

00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:20,090
And it's not that they constantly says, but they might be so interested in how can we sell more

00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:27,115
that they have some sort of advisory role to their sales guys or to the account manager to be

00:28:27,115 --> 00:28:30,075
like, hey, let's put might already do that.

00:28:30,075 --> 00:28:36,300
I've seen this customer really struggling, and I think we should propose x, y, and zed, or I've

00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:44,255
seen this really need with all the customers I see in that specific space, they struggle with X, Y, and Z.

00:28:44,554 --> 00:28:50,315
Have you ever thought about creating maybe a proposal that we help them doing X, Y, and Z?

00:28:50,315 --> 00:28:58,370
And so not every developer would do that, but some of them might feel like, oh, I could be part of that sales team.

00:28:58,430 --> 00:29:03,325
And if it just means we have them on a monthly base, we have a meeting to figure out ideas,

00:29:04,905 --> 00:29:10,779
develop them a bit further on the side, while I'm still, my main job is doing code, delivering

00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:16,360
a front end for an end customer can be very motivating because they're not just, I'm not just a developer.

00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,895
I'm helping on creating sales stuff.

00:29:20,295 --> 00:29:26,980
I have other places I can help, but the core thing I do is still time and material.

00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:34,545
I'm working on a customer side, but I, I really think that generally people are drawn to wanna do elements.

00:29:34,605 --> 00:29:36,225
They, they truly have interest.

00:29:36,605 --> 00:29:38,125
Doesn't mean always they have talent.

00:29:38,125 --> 00:29:42,205
I mean, then you have to have the discussion there, but at least you don't stop them to show

00:29:42,205 --> 00:29:48,210
the interest and maybe try something out, because I think as long as it's safe enough to try,

00:29:49,230 --> 00:29:54,655
you can always support that, but that that needs, again, conversation with people, and that's

00:29:54,655 --> 00:29:58,414
when, I think you also asked me at the beginning, like, questions or things which interest me.

00:29:58,414 --> 00:30:01,395
It's also this book that's called Nonviolent Communication.

00:30:01,615 --> 00:30:07,980
It's like some people say it shouldn't call non violent communication, but more like the, kind

00:30:07,980 --> 00:30:14,705
of like proper human communication, but the idea is that you can have hardcore discussions about

00:30:15,085 --> 00:30:18,925
certain elements without being like jumping over someone's feeling.

00:30:18,925 --> 00:30:24,750
Because often the, I think a lot of people are making decisions in a way that they feel like

00:30:24,750 --> 00:30:26,930
it happened, and I don't have to have the hard discussion.

00:30:27,150 --> 00:30:33,815
And you, exactly, you would do a can something, you can try something, and then also go in and

00:30:33,815 --> 00:30:39,360
say like, okay, we need to have a talk about this, and it can be very like high leveled and be fine.

00:30:39,420 --> 00:30:44,220
Speaker 1: So, yeah. To comment on what you said, I think I absolutely agree.

00:30:44,220 --> 00:30:48,725
I think I said, like, the reason why it's sometimes hard is twofold.

00:30:48,725 --> 00:30:53,125
So first, I mentioned that, yeah, that's it's it's about the competencies or or being able to

00:30:53,125 --> 00:31:01,450
work in particular context. 2nd is second thing is exactly what you said, which is interest.

00:31:01,510 --> 00:31:04,635
I also call it sometimes obsession, obsessing about things.

00:31:04,715 --> 00:31:09,835
So for instance, I think in terms of our group that focuses on strategic things, these are group

00:31:09,915 --> 00:31:15,789
this is a group that actually, like, is skilled in making that kind of decisions or thinking

00:31:15,789 --> 00:31:19,549
those terms, but also these are the people that are obsessed about it. Right?

00:31:19,549 --> 00:31:21,664
Speaker 2: Yeah. But I think that's also fine.

00:31:21,664 --> 00:31:24,245
If you tell people like, Hey, you can join this group.

00:31:24,625 --> 00:31:29,460
You have these things we need to accomplish and we currently need whatever we need, and there's

00:31:29,460 --> 00:31:34,980
a certain commitment that people can also be like, Hey, I wanna come, I wanna commit to that,

00:31:34,980 --> 00:31:39,125
but there should maybe also be, not say trial period, but it's the same thing when you have,

00:31:39,125 --> 00:31:41,445
like, you hire someone, what do you do?

00:31:41,445 --> 00:31:46,580
Probation period is that people start, and then you might have ability where also some people

00:31:46,580 --> 00:31:51,860
can be like, you can join 1 or 2 meetings of that team and see like, how, what are they doing?

00:31:51,860 --> 00:31:55,434
Is that, is that the right thing for me that then they know when they commit?

00:31:55,434 --> 00:32:00,815
It's not just, but I call 2 meetings, and then I walk out because it's not interesting.

00:32:01,350 --> 00:32:08,070
But I totally agree because at the end of the day, if people just jumping around, then not helpful

00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:10,810
either, because you need to accomplish things. Sure.

00:32:12,745 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: In that environment, that is with, self organized, self managed, Like, what's the way to handle other performance?

00:32:23,380 --> 00:32:24,260
Speaker 2: I mean, the thing yeah.

00:32:24,260 --> 00:32:31,275
This is the hard but this is the one which I I'm actually the most the most the most obsessed

00:32:31,415 --> 00:32:37,520
why I really think ways of self organizing could be really beneficial is because what happened

00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,540
these days, if someone doesn't perform, usually takes years.

00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,280
If it's not too probabious, it takes years to people to figure out.

00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:51,405
Then what happens is like, you have a manager who's busy by on, on, on their own doing stuff.

00:32:52,265 --> 00:32:54,665
And then the perform, the person just never performs.

00:32:54,665 --> 00:33:00,410
And somehow people always think like, yeah, but their manager should should see it.

00:33:00,410 --> 00:33:01,210
Why don't they see it?

00:33:01,210 --> 00:33:03,770
Why is not managing addressing it? Why?

00:33:03,770 --> 00:33:05,385
And we always have the personal project.

00:33:05,385 --> 00:33:10,985
Usually, it takes a while, but then maybe if they collect feedback, those people feel comfortable

00:33:10,985 --> 00:33:14,879
to speak up, because sometimes they're shaking in bad to be like, yeah, but that's my colleague.

00:33:14,879 --> 00:33:18,879
I still don't like the performance, but, then they get fired and like, oh, there's all these

00:33:18,879 --> 00:33:25,615
like thing going around, but then you somehow avoid the element that that person's eating the

00:33:25,615 --> 00:33:28,835
wrong job or completed the wrong company.

00:33:29,054 --> 00:33:34,880
And it should be addressed swiftly, because if you don't address it fast, everyone around pays the price.

00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:41,539
And I think in in hierarchical organization, you have it so often that people just go by potentially

00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:49,635
for years, completely underperforming, and also being completely demotivated, because no human

00:33:49,695 --> 00:33:52,649
being likes to not to contribute.

00:33:52,950 --> 00:33:58,390
So quite often, if they don't contribute, there's either personal issues going on, they're in

00:33:58,390 --> 00:34:01,835
the wrong job, but are fearful to say something.

00:34:02,455 --> 00:34:08,740
And at some point, if you go sit on for too long, they just are fine with what they do and nothing changes.

00:34:08,740 --> 00:34:16,200
And I really believe that the hardest part in more self organization is you have to address these element with peers.

00:34:17,775 --> 00:34:25,420
But what's usually happening with peers, if I address it and I go to my colleague, what is the first thing I say? You're always lazy.

00:34:25,420 --> 00:34:28,539
You don't do this, and and I haven't seen you doing that.

00:34:28,539 --> 00:34:30,799
And then last week, I had to pick it up.

00:34:32,385 --> 00:34:38,385
What's the channel average or above fair majority response of that person?

00:34:38,385 --> 00:34:46,390
They feel threatened, attacked, and they start either not listening anymore and turn away and

00:34:46,390 --> 00:34:49,210
ignore, or they start lashing out.

00:34:49,645 --> 00:34:53,345
And then what you have is a conflict situation.

00:34:54,365 --> 00:35:01,550
And to actually be able to have that discussion to be like, what do you observe? What's your need? What's your request?

00:35:01,550 --> 00:35:07,974
Get that person to understand, hey, you're not, you're not picking up your Slack It's not an easy discussion.

00:35:08,035 --> 00:35:15,970
And obviously, if it's a team, multiple people saying is also not easy, and then you have to

00:35:15,970 --> 00:35:18,849
be careful in that situation also that not mobbing is starting.

00:35:18,849 --> 00:35:25,145
Because if every 8 people pointing to 1, you pretty quickly, probably in a situation where the

00:35:25,145 --> 00:35:31,970
people feel more, but if you find the right way to communicate that, I personally believe you

00:35:31,970 --> 00:35:37,109
can spot under performance, not spot it.

00:35:37,335 --> 00:35:42,135
People would see it as quickly, but you would address it much quicker than before.

00:35:42,135 --> 00:35:44,235
It was like, oh, you have to talk to HR.

00:35:44,455 --> 00:35:45,735
You have to talk to the boss.

00:35:45,735 --> 00:35:48,460
The boss feels hates having this conversation.

00:35:48,599 --> 00:35:50,059
Maybe it's his best buddy.

00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:57,035
So that that nothing gets done because I don't I don't threaten the situation with friendship with my best buddy.

00:35:57,035 --> 00:36:06,769
So that's kind of a bit what what I feel could free up a bit that ownership, also that issue

00:36:06,769 --> 00:36:15,345
where you have, like, with with a lot of employees, sometimes have a complain mode. This is not working. That is not working. This person is underperforming.

00:36:15,484 --> 00:36:18,865
Nothing gets done, and I can't do anything because I'm not in management.

00:36:19,860 --> 00:36:26,200
And if you take that away and say, we are the team, like if the problem is big enough, then own it.

00:36:26,945 --> 00:36:31,845
If you're frustrated about something, you can suggest we need to have we need to do x, y, zed.

00:36:32,625 --> 00:36:34,405
Is someone willing to help me?

00:36:34,490 --> 00:36:39,710
Or if the problem is not big enough, it won't be done, but no one can complain because you have

00:36:40,089 --> 00:36:47,894
the ability to either take ownership or go directly to the persons personal persons who are

00:36:47,894 --> 00:36:54,170
responsible and request that it would that they do something, because maybe it's also somewhere described.

00:36:54,170 --> 00:36:56,670
There's a role, there's a purpose, someone has the responsibility.

00:36:57,735 --> 00:37:01,895
So you can go, but these are not easy discussions because you ask for something and the other

00:37:01,895 --> 00:37:07,380
people might feel threatened that they're being called out, but that's human life.

00:37:07,380 --> 00:37:09,220
I mean, that's, that's the life in the family.

00:37:09,220 --> 00:37:10,600
That's the life with friends.

00:37:11,140 --> 00:37:13,620
No one gets told they don't do their job.

00:37:13,620 --> 00:37:15,140
No one likes this, but it's

00:37:16,095 --> 00:37:21,715
Speaker 1: So, the takeaway here is start with the right recruitment and then build a culture of feedback,

00:37:22,415 --> 00:37:28,599
learn people, teach people how to provide feedback, how to own the feedback, and things like that.

00:37:28,740 --> 00:37:34,095
Speaker 2: A lot of people you see exactly, like, they send people in these courses, usually after 1, I

00:37:34,095 --> 00:37:40,914
think often after a year, bit after a year, so they start realizing we need people to to to

00:37:41,055 --> 00:37:46,170
send through this type of practice, yeah, giving feedback or non white, whatever it is, but

00:37:46,170 --> 00:37:47,850
you need to be able to speak with each other.

00:37:47,850 --> 00:37:53,705
That's the hardest part, but I think you will learn for life, because the same concept you can

00:37:53,705 --> 00:37:57,465
use at home, with friends, with family, because it's the same thing.

00:37:57,465 --> 00:38:02,570
You work, you're together with a group of people, and you need to have a conversation, which

00:38:02,570 --> 00:38:06,270
is on on on eye to eye and not from top down.

00:38:06,570 --> 00:38:09,290
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. That was great talking to you.

00:38:09,290 --> 00:38:10,475
Thank you for those insights.

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