Beyond Hierarchies: Cultivating a Transparent Feedback Culture

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, still, I'd like to ask why are are you interested in the these concepts of self management,

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self organizations, or basically these Turkas Organizations?

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Why is it interesting for you?

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Speaker 2: Why? So I think main background was that I often, like, sometimes things come multiple times

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in your life, but there was like a person or a friend that go play squash.

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So he had this book, like on self organization from Nadu, where it's basically, he talked about it.

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He mentioned it like once.

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I was like, okay, that's probably super Great. Let me

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Speaker 1: get a good English.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. That's probably super boring. I was like, okay.

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Then later, he mentioned it again, and then I was like, in our company, I felt like it probably

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could improve some things, but I wasn't really sure what and, and, and maybe how.

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So then decided to buy the book.

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Now I read chapter number 1, and I was like, first a bit bored to not to death, but I was like,

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this something is boring, but I just kept reading.

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And then I started chapter 2, and I was like sucked in because I always was challenged being

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in like organizations with hierarchy and being doing these performance reviews.

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And then people come there, you have to rate them like in a school system.

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Do I have now the best grade, not the best grade?

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How do I compare it to others?

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And the manager is kind of the judge from the outside rather than the person their self reflect

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like, hey, what's our purpose in this organization?

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How well did I do?

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Could I do any better?

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And not this judgmental thing.

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Someone from the outside has to grade them, and then also make it obviously salary relevant.

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And then people being frustrated because you don't see the world as they see it.

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It's always felt that's a lot of frustration when you manage people.

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And when I read self organization, I was like, this is exactly what I wanna work in, because

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if you have people around, everyone has their goal, their clear role, and they can take ownership,

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there's no one to blame, and you also work together in a collaborative mode and not someone

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who's kind of like this judgment person.

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And I never liked it as a manager.

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I always thought that you need to give people space.

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Intrinsic motivation is important, and they have to take responsibility, and they have to be

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able to make mistakes, because through mistakes, you learn.

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But I was, I always felt like, why is there no better way, but I couldn't have conceptualized

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myself, yeah, concepts such as self organization.

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And when I read this, if all these examples from these companies, how they treat their people,

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how they work, and how they do it, it got me really excited.

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And then I basically explore them more and also find them.

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Of course, I did in Switzerland on, on, on going teal, self organization and companies.

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And I also was actually researching.

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I wrote the search for companies in Switzerland who do self organization was mainly holacracy.

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I wrote these companies, and I was surprised how many people are actually responding and say,

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I will talk to you.

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I had 1 hour talks with them.

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I had my questions, why they implemented holacracy, advantages, disadvantages, what do you have to pay attention?

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That's how basic I came into that topic.

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And I still think it's it's for me, a very goal I wanna achieve that sometime that some part

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work in a company where you can do that, but I also know it's not just easy by saying, like,

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yeah, now we are self organized, organized. What does it mean?

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And how is it implemented?

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It's probably it's it's 2 things to, to, to get there, but it's, it's definitely, probably,

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yeah, could mean a lot of fun for the people working there.

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And that's what you also get as a feedback when you talk to these companies.

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It's only so one of the same.

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Most of them have the same feedback.

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Speaker 1: What what what what was the feedback?

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Like, main takeaways, both in terms of advantages and disadvantages?

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Speaker 2: So I think the main takeaway was that, I think, they increased the the the ownership of the

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people, but also the motivation and the satisfaction.

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So most of the companies, all of them who kept I mean, obviously, some of them, they stopped

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the experiments because from some whatever reason that the environment didn't work, and the

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ones I interviewed, obviously, they succeeded, but they all said it's basically people wanna work for us.

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They don't wanna leave because they enjoy it so much.

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And we actually get people who apply because we are following style of organization.

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And it's also that you can see these companies, they're actually having blocks.

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So have you ever seen a company having a block on the matrix organization? Oh, great.

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We have matrix in place, and it's all no one blocks about that apart from maybe some consulting

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companies, but the company themself, writing about that concept on a blog, which is unrelated

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to their business, shows how much it means for the employers who actually write these blog posts and talk about it.

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And I think that's like a very like element, which, which was once great advantage.

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The other one, a person said it was a manager before, so like, basically there's stuff happening

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I could have never invented and dream of before because the management would have come up with

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that, because otherwise, how would someone take the initiative exactly?

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And now people taking initiative, and I would have never dreamed of what's all coming out of

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that, but I also had to learn to kind of step away and let people do whatever they do.

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But I think overall, the outcome is better.

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And I think most of these companies say they are better off because of self organization.

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I think one specific example, which probably a lot of larger corporations say, yeah, but it

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is never work, holacracy or self organization.

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I mean, there's plenty of large organization who, who implemented it and were super successful,

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but also interviewed a company in Switzerland who was part of a large, basically holding in

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India, like a consulting company, which bought them.

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And one element that also thing, with a couple of 100 people in Switzerland, one rule, one agreement

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that when they bought, they can keep holacracy.

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So that was written in the agreement. So they kept it.

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And now what they can see, this Switzerland unit with self organization, outperforms all the

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other units in that organization, more and more, actually they're approached by the model company

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and they ask, like, can you take over that business and implement the same you did?

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Because they do financially better, they do motivation wise better.

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So like everywhere, they're actually on the top.

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And that to me also shows that then the other company actually works pretty much hierarchical,

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obviously up to that unit where they can do self organization.

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And that shows that actually there is a lot of value if it's implemented right.

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Speaker 1: We spoke about it a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It was worth I think the the same thing as if someone ever does sport or doesn't is not in shape.

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And they said like, oh, I wanna be in shape and I wanna eat healthy.

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Like, okay, what do you have to do?

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You might have to start exercising on a more regular basis, and you might have to change your eating habits.

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And these are things you did for years, maybe for some of the people since they've grown up,

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because their parents didn't know how to maybe didn't exercise.

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Maybe they, they, they cooked in a certain way that the meats were heavy and not as, as, as healthy, like fruits, vegetables.

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So to change that is not easy.

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You won't get up just the next morning, like, yeah, I, I, I'm, I'm all fine doing my sport.

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I'm all fine eating eating the right way.

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It takes a lot of work, and you have fallbacks, but you still have to believe in that goal.

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And for a lot of people, maybe where you start at the point where you have no clue how to accomplish

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that, because I haven't seen it, how it's done.

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I have not a brother or sister who accomplished that, so I can go and ask them.

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You might also wanna like hire a coach because like often the beginning, it's hard.

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And if someone reminds you, reminds you on a constant basis, say, have you done your exercises? Can you do this?

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Shows a bit tips and tricks to how you move yourself to that state that it becomes natural. It's it's hard work.

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And the thing for a lot of companies, if you start and do it yourself, you might still a bit

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locked in the old patterns, and then it can be pretty quickly to say it's not working.

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People are not, they don't take responsibility.

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They're not stepping up, or maybe this because the person who had maybe let go of the, the authority

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or get distributed a bit more of the, the, the power of making decisions, He's not willing to do that.

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And I think an outside person can better call these out than the people before who may be reported to that person.

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So it's kind of a bit that transformation, I think, is quite critical.

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And the companies I talked to, most of them actually said that a coach was very beneficial,

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and most of them recommended a coach for the 1st couple of months to just help putting things in motion.

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But it's the same once you're then crawling, once you're walking, and then from walking to running,

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that's that you can then do yourself.

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But it's this initial, probably, phase, which is crucial because obviously people who say it

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won't work, you will hear that constantly, the templates you'll say, or people who were managing

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before, obviously they scared to lose their job.

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So you will have people say it's not working because I still wanna have my 20 people reporting to me.

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I don't wanna get rid of that. They will fight that.

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And so it's kind of like, I think, a crucial element to bring these people along.

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And also, if you have an outside perspective, I think that the chances of success are are larger, in my opinion.

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Speaker 1: The companies that you spoke with, do they fall in, do they have something in common besides

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introducing that model of, operational governance?

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Like, are they, I don't know, service providers?

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Are these I mean, technically, if you read Lado and you go and search,

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Speaker 2: It should be not making a difference in the industry because there's also examples in, in the

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book where it's in industrial blue collar and wherever.

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I think what I found is a lot of people are in Switzerland, most companies are close to like

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some sort of digital agency, something related to software.

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And also usually, because scrum was implemented, I mean, to some extent, from this is self organization

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concept, because, yeah, you have certain things you have to do, certain elements in scrum, but

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it's actually self organizing, because you have a team, they have certain roles, they have responsibilities,

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and they have a maybe common goal, but each person brings their specific role into it.

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So a lot of, I could see it also being very natural for a company which is active in the software

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space to make that step, because they already know, to some extent, elements of self organization

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and agility to through scrum or, or kanban or whatever concept they're using.

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So also the, the comp is the most I found were actually in, in the space, which is more closely related to software. If you

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Speaker 1: look globally, there's much more companies that operate in an innovative way, not top down,

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not chain of command, specifically in software or specifically in the fields that require a lot of innovation.

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I think it's just, I think one one

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Speaker 2: misconcept in the entire, like, management space, so treating treating human beings, I think,

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is that people believe if you don't have, if you're not well educated, you can make your own decisions.

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I kind of like, I think it's more natural for people to be like, yeah, they have all these smart people.

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They started at top universities.

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I mean, they should be capable of doing that.

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They're more like prone to be like, yeah, they can self organize as they should be able.

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Then if you maybe walk into factory, you think, yeah, but to have like an, maybe they did an

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apprenticeship, some people just had not even an apprenticeship to learn on the job.

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And I think that also for me, it's, I totally believe it's a misconcept because everyone has

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to live life, and to live life, you need to be, to some extent, self organized.

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You have to do certain things to like run your family and all this.

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And I think everyone, every human being is capable of that.

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But I think when you make a decision, people still feel that for whatever reason, people with

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a higher education should be more capable of doing that.

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And that's why also to your point, probably, companies in the field, where it's either innovative

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work, where it's maybe soft, where it's more agility, to some extent, maybe have more people

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with higher education, and then feel like, oh, but we yeah.

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They should be able to do that.

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Let let's try, versus when you go into an industrial setup that they might feel like maybe the hurdles are too high. I mean

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Speaker 1: Interesting. I think I think it's not about education.

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I, I also believe it's about competencies in a specific field, plus mindset, plus appropriate

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leadership and some other things that come into play.

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So it's, it's about competencies in a specific field that is related to the company business and the mindset. Sure. But what

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Speaker 2: I meant was more like, if you walk in and if you ask like maybe a 1,000 people and you ask,

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oh, where there are a bunch of lawyers, and they have the factory.

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Now we have the concept where you can decide there's the chain of command, like people are told

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what to do versus people can self organize.

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And you will ask them like, okay, where is the higher probability?

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Where would you trust that the concept would work?

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What would most people choose?

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Probably, or an engineer or whatever is in a car factory.

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Doesn't, I mean, they, they just do the thing on the thing, but the fact is what they do.

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And that also shows a bit like, what we, what, what, what, that they know their job, what they do.

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And it's not that you tell them to be a lawyer, but you basically tell them you can, you have

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more responsibility around the job you do, and they know their job.

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And that's kind of a big, but I think that's also a bit of a mindset, what people believe someone is capable of.

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And I think every human being is capable of, obviously, some people do better in that environment

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and some less, and it's also a bit like, yeah, some bit also about personality and that you

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feel it's safe enough to fail because in a self organization need to give to people, the feel

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that they can also fail.

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If you obviously punish every mistake, like you won't get anyone who takes responsibility because

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every time they do, they feel I only get punished.

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So it needs to be some environment like at home, when you raise kids, they need to be able to

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fail, they need to be able to learn, and then they can excel.

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Speaker 1: Building the trust to the managers or other people, that it's safe to fail, It's not that easy

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because we we, I, like, I I meet that problem every now and then because people say, like, look.

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You say it's safe to fail, but in my previous jobs, it was always said that safe to fail, but

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it was until it wasn't.

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And I think it's it's about the trust, you also

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Speaker 2: It's true, but you have to build the trust.

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I mean, like, with some I mean, what you could implement is kind of the shit happens Friday,

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like on Friday, you meet, and people talk about all their failure and they get applauded for

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making a mistake and they have a drink and they can be there.

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And maybe as a CEO, the first and say, yeah, Monday, I I sent a wrong email to the wrong customer

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and whatever, like, whatever you did to be like, some people call it, and, yeah, let's say shit happens.

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Friday sounds a bit better.

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They're all the worst trip, but, but they celebrate that, and it doesn't have to be a negative

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thing because the outcome was also like that then it's not just say, like, the mistake I made,

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but what have I I learned from that?

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And what was my solution?

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And kind of like people can be like, yeah, I had a mistake.

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There was this huge setback. It was freaking embarrassing.

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I sent a letter to the wrong customer.

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I was so embarrassed and but I realized our quality, we'd be at certain checks are missing.

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So the lesson we basically changed x, y, and zed.

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And instead of people getting like, oh, why did it happen? Whose mistake was it?

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People celebrate that, that we, we learned something and we can move on.

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And I think that, that can change that, that setting, because obviously people have to see that

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you can do failure until they trust, oh, this company is actually, I got celebrated on Friday once a month.

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If I go up to the podium and I tell stuff which happened and how we learned and people doing

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that, and everyone is thinks access. It's a great event.

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And rather being like, these, these people make mistakes.

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And so it's kind of like a transition, which needs to happen on, on mistakes happen because they're happening. And you're right.

00:17:46,475 --> 00:17:54,299
Like often in a lot of companies, you feel like also we were prone and raised, maybe. Something happens at home.

00:17:54,299 --> 00:17:55,980
Like, what's the first question I ask?

00:17:55,980 --> 00:17:57,659
I'm not saying I'm doing well.

00:17:57,659 --> 00:17:59,105
It's like, oh, who did that?

00:17:59,105 --> 00:18:01,425
Like, then usually you ask first the little one.

00:18:01,425 --> 00:18:02,145
No, I didn't do it.

00:18:02,145 --> 00:18:05,665
Then the older one, and you then immediately think, oh, it wasn't the little one.

00:18:05,665 --> 00:18:06,805
It was the old one.

00:18:07,020 --> 00:18:11,260
And then you realize maybe your wife says, yeah, something spilled.

00:18:11,260 --> 00:18:16,985
I was just about to to to whatever, but it's just in his reaction and it's so much ingrained

00:18:17,045 --> 00:18:18,085
the way we were raised.

00:18:18,085 --> 00:18:23,260
And then obviously what we carry into the companies and also what the people who found companies

00:18:23,260 --> 00:18:25,120
and manage companies bring in.

00:18:25,580 --> 00:18:31,365
If you weren't allowed to do mistakes in your home and in your school or whatever, like likely

00:18:31,365 --> 00:18:32,804
the company's not that place.

00:18:32,804 --> 00:18:39,090
So there needs to be a change, but if you were that we want to create that there's the ability to change.

00:18:39,090 --> 00:18:44,929
But first, you need to be aware that you can then put the focus and the energy on it to kind of like address it.

00:18:44,929 --> 00:18:46,950
And as long as you're not aware, obviously.

00:18:48,274 --> 00:18:53,575
Speaker 1: And it probably should start from the leadership, and, go down, that leadership.

00:18:53,715 --> 00:18:55,075
Speaker 2: I think that's most of the time.

00:18:55,075 --> 00:18:57,230
Like, obviously, if, yeah, you're right.

00:18:57,230 --> 00:19:04,485
Like if someone was maybe still deemed not as being maybe in the leadership or talks about mistakes

00:19:04,545 --> 00:19:07,505
and then management puts them down, it will never work.

00:19:07,505 --> 00:19:12,649
But if management steps up and writes an email like, yeah, we had this incident, it was caused

00:19:12,649 --> 00:19:18,169
by me, or we, we figured that out, and I think this is awesome. Well done, guys.

00:19:18,169 --> 00:19:23,375
It's kind of like, and it takes, you need to build up the trust, but I think it's doable.

00:19:24,075 --> 00:19:27,730
It's just more about how much you're committed going the way.

00:19:27,730 --> 00:19:34,885
And obviously in self organization, leadership wants to make transition, but often that is also

00:19:34,885 --> 00:19:39,365
like personal change on their side because they may be realized the way I was running the company

00:19:39,365 --> 00:19:40,885
before it just stressed me out.

00:19:40,885 --> 00:19:45,770
There were certain things I actually, and they also often do a certain transformation as long

00:19:45,770 --> 00:19:51,765
as also the people going along, because you need to talk to each other from the, you need different

00:19:51,765 --> 00:19:58,060
skills to work in an environment, I think, and that, yeah, it will benefit everyone, even the

00:19:58,060 --> 00:20:03,420
customers from the company, the families from the people who work there, because you have to

00:20:03,420 --> 00:20:07,465
have a different mindset and a different way of being and working with your child.

00:20:09,285 --> 00:20:11,845
Speaker 1: I think we were talking about sort of different concepts.

00:20:11,845 --> 00:20:17,820
We we are also exploring a little bit of self management, a little bit of self organizing, but

00:20:17,820 --> 00:20:28,155
I wanna get your thoughts on what what is the scope of the decisions that people make with an organization, within Teams.

00:20:28,990 --> 00:20:34,830
Speaker 2: I think I think it depends it depends on the on where the the organization is in.

00:20:34,830 --> 00:20:41,235
For example, our company I work for, we acquired, like, 3 banks in the last couple of years

00:20:41,235 --> 00:20:44,455
in Germany, and you're regulated under Buffin.

00:20:44,754 --> 00:20:52,260
Buffin has certain expectations who can be in charge, who'd be in charge for, for certain elements.

00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:58,295
And obviously, it wouldn't be possible to go out and sometimes say like certain elements where

00:20:58,295 --> 00:21:02,855
someone has has to, has a certain background to make a decision can then be taken by anyone.

00:21:02,855 --> 00:21:09,520
So obviously, they need to maybe be tied to certain roles, or you also need to implement certain

00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,904
checks and balances to be there for the regulator.

00:21:13,904 --> 00:21:16,465
And you can do that by maybe mapping the roles.

00:21:16,465 --> 00:21:22,900
So the regulator expects to see certain roles and you then have people who have this external

00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,200
role name that the regulator feels comfortable.

00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,520
Oh, there's someone who's responsible for that.

00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,425
That person might have more, yeah, competent and might have multiple roles.

00:21:31,425 --> 00:21:36,705
And also in this, on certain settings, obviously there's limitations. You can limit roles.

00:21:36,705 --> 00:21:43,149
You can say like that role, that team can decide up until a certain amount, everything above,

00:21:43,370 --> 00:21:45,529
obviously there's also in Salesforce. There's still a CEO.

00:21:45,529 --> 00:21:48,045
There's still someone out there who gives a bit the direction.

00:21:49,005 --> 00:21:55,485
There might be things where you say above that, a second person needs to weigh in and needs

00:21:55,485 --> 00:21:57,745
to give approval or needs to be consulted.

00:21:58,030 --> 00:22:03,490
That that's very normal because some people have, maybe also financially, certain limitations.

00:22:03,710 --> 00:22:10,165
It doesn't mean self organization has to mean, we give everything away and people, if the role

00:22:10,165 --> 00:22:13,990
can decide everything, you can have, like, you can limit that.

00:22:13,990 --> 00:22:18,550
And I think that also has to fee figured out for each company, how it works best.

00:22:18,550 --> 00:22:24,655
I think it's almost like a, I mean, if you speak holacracy, what they say, it's more like a

00:22:25,115 --> 00:22:29,035
a operating system for certain hardware as the company is the hardware.

00:22:29,035 --> 00:22:33,630
That's the operating commit, but the operating system can also be configured.

00:22:34,090 --> 00:22:36,890
It's not that you go in and say like, oh, we have to follow everything.

00:22:36,890 --> 00:22:42,825
If some things don't work, adjust them, find different ways to like go through the more important

00:22:42,825 --> 00:22:49,660
thing is to mindset and the principles to be like, this is what we want to accomplish, but then find your own way.

00:22:49,660 --> 00:22:56,675
Because the same with scrum, you should go around and you interview people about, you get so many different answers.

00:22:56,675 --> 00:22:57,635
What is scrum for you?

00:22:57,635 --> 00:23:04,230
And then you're like, company A says the following and then company B, and then you go back

00:23:04,230 --> 00:23:09,290
to the, the, the, the original principles from scrum, you would think, but if you read them,

00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:15,255
but no, it's like people took these concepts and then take some pieces, adjust some pieces,

00:23:15,255 --> 00:23:23,640
maybe ignore some and still call it scrum, despite probably the, the, the original people who

00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,720
started with scrum would say, this is not scrum.

00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:31,425
They would still call it scrum just because it's the buzzword, but I think that's similar to like self organizations.

00:23:31,565 --> 00:23:33,025
You have to find your way.

00:23:33,245 --> 00:23:34,765
You don't have to be orthodox alert.

00:23:34,765 --> 00:23:39,460
I don't think so because otherwise it would be hard because some things might be adjusted to

00:23:39,460 --> 00:23:43,000
be successful, and if you're too strict, it just might fail.

00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:48,865
Speaker 1: Like distributing the decision power and ownership about our control about specific areas, I think it's critical.

00:23:49,645 --> 00:23:52,065
We're still struggling with some aspects of that.

00:23:53,085 --> 00:23:59,390
Speaker 2: But I think also is important, what he also mentions, like on the OKRs is still, obviously,

00:23:59,390 --> 00:24:06,045
I think when you say do you have a certain people with competency, I I think you phrased it the following.

00:24:06,045 --> 00:24:09,825
So we have certain people with competency, they issue 2 strategy.

00:24:11,005 --> 00:24:17,070
My thing is just a bit around like, but what if you open it up?

00:24:17,070 --> 00:24:22,110
Do you say these are the roles and we have people who do you think that people applying who

00:24:22,110 --> 00:24:25,915
are actually not good at strategy or don't like it?

00:24:25,915 --> 00:24:31,775
I mean, that's in a separate discussion, but I feel like by, what I would be careful is by obviously

00:24:31,980 --> 00:24:37,280
excluding and deciding who can do it, that you might have very talented people you don't see,

00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:41,655
but if you don't make it open, you will never see their interest.

00:24:41,875 --> 00:24:46,035
Obviously it's in a different discussion when they have interest, they get a certain role, and

00:24:46,035 --> 00:24:50,530
then you realize when we produce output, they do stop producing, then you have to have the discussion.

00:24:50,590 --> 00:24:57,845
But I think always like when you make a decision to some extent from top down, the group's fine,

00:24:57,845 --> 00:25:01,465
but who's in the group. That's okay.

00:25:02,325 --> 00:25:08,110
I just say like, usually you might lose out potential on people who have a huge talent, but

00:25:08,110 --> 00:25:13,710
they feel like I can't be part of this group because the group was already made by these people.

00:25:13,710 --> 00:25:16,835
And then you basically silence the voice.

00:25:17,695 --> 00:25:21,935
By me saying that doesn't mean everyone has to be everywhere, because otherwise, then the cop is not running.

00:25:21,935 --> 00:25:23,135
I mean, that's just not working.

00:25:23,135 --> 00:25:28,650
Some people need to do finance, their strategy, there's obviously the implementation work, there's

00:25:29,030 --> 00:25:37,155
the customer acquisition work, but I just feel often by sometimes making decisions by who can

00:25:37,155 --> 00:25:42,740
be part of the crew, but not make it open at actually people know there is this group, there

00:25:42,740 --> 00:25:47,299
is certain open roles that they can step up and also say they potentially have interest.

00:25:47,299 --> 00:25:53,655
That doesn't mean that they can just pee in that group or take that role, that you might lose

00:25:53,655 --> 00:25:55,755
people who, who, who have talent.

00:25:56,250 --> 00:26:01,929
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think this is this is a trade off because on one hand, you want

00:26:01,929 --> 00:26:07,395
to get, like, use this knowledge that you have in this side of team, this mindset, etcetera,

00:26:07,774 --> 00:26:12,720
but you also wanna be effective in making decisions, making them fast, making them accurate,

00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,900
making mistakes, but like learning from them.

00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:25,115
For me, the tricky part, is twofold. 1st, not everyone is trained or skilled in in thinking in abstract ways.

00:26:25,255 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, what I meant more was like the channel, I do believe that people are drawn often

00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:39,145
to also what maybe their motivation is, the intrinsic motivation, especially if you start creating

00:26:39,205 --> 00:26:42,164
environment where it's not about the ranks and who has power.

00:26:42,164 --> 00:26:47,190
And then having one belief like, I need to go up, I need to rise, I need to more, and they start

00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:53,965
doing stuff they actually hate, but they're still doing it because, because of the fame they

00:26:53,965 --> 00:26:59,880
have, which is then completely wrong because everyone below them, if they have reporting lines will be in pain.

00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:06,059
But I feel like if you have an environment where people can really bring in their talent and

00:27:06,815 --> 00:27:09,554
take also things they really have true interest.

00:27:10,655 --> 00:27:14,595
And then, no, it's not just a company where, yeah, I have true interest that take something.

00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:20,340
And then I sit around and do nothing, but there is also results are expected, which is okay. Cause we have goals.

00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:27,945
I do believe that if people pick stuff or do things they're truly motivated, that the outcome

00:27:27,945 --> 00:27:33,799
is like, is so much higher than if you hire someone who's maybe just they hired in that role

00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:37,755
and you're like, I don't know if she'd like it, but now how do I get out of it?

00:27:37,915 --> 00:27:41,595
How do I tell the company I'm not made for this role?

00:27:41,595 --> 00:27:47,250
Because would then the consequence be I get fired, So people start being quiet and if you can

00:27:47,250 --> 00:27:53,145
create them, so like we have, like, we, we have certain roles, like we have certain things and

00:27:53,145 --> 00:27:59,785
people are interested, they can basically come in and be part of that is very motivating for them.

00:27:59,785 --> 00:28:05,560
And the same thing, I think, in, in new companies also, like in, like, technically you can have

00:28:06,740 --> 00:28:11,355
people who constantly work with the consultant, and they might, they might be some meetings

00:28:11,415 --> 00:28:14,555
or some monthly meeting going around around sales.

00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:20,090
And it's not that they constantly says, but they might be so interested in how can we sell more

00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:27,115
that they have some sort of advisory role to their sales guys or to the account manager to be

00:28:27,115 --> 00:28:30,075
like, hey, let's put might already do that.

00:28:30,075 --> 00:28:36,300
I've seen this customer really struggling, and I think we should propose x, y, and zed, or I've

00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:44,255
seen this really need with all the customers I see in that specific space, they struggle with X, Y, and Z.

00:28:44,554 --> 00:28:50,315
Have you ever thought about creating maybe a proposal that we help them doing X, Y, and Z?

00:28:50,315 --> 00:28:58,370
And so not every developer would do that, but some of them might feel like, oh, I could be part of that sales team.

00:28:58,430 --> 00:29:03,325
And if it just means we have them on a monthly base, we have a meeting to figure out ideas,

00:29:04,905 --> 00:29:10,779
develop them a bit further on the side, while I'm still, my main job is doing code, delivering

00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:16,360
a front end for an end customer can be very motivating because they're not just, I'm not just a developer.

00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,895
I'm helping on creating sales stuff.

00:29:20,295 --> 00:29:26,980
I have other places I can help, but the core thing I do is still time and material.

00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:34,545
I'm working on a customer side, but I, I really think that generally people are drawn to wanna do elements.

00:29:34,605 --> 00:29:36,225
They, they truly have interest.

00:29:36,605 --> 00:29:38,125
Doesn't mean always they have talent.

00:29:38,125 --> 00:29:42,205
I mean, then you have to have the discussion there, but at least you don't stop them to show

00:29:42,205 --> 00:29:48,210
the interest and maybe try something out, because I think as long as it's safe enough to try,

00:29:49,230 --> 00:29:54,655
you can always support that, but that that needs, again, conversation with people, and that's

00:29:54,655 --> 00:29:58,414
when, I think you also asked me at the beginning, like, questions or things which interest me.

00:29:58,414 --> 00:30:01,395
It's also this book that's called Nonviolent Communication.

00:30:01,615 --> 00:30:07,980
It's like some people say it shouldn't call non violent communication, but more like the, kind

00:30:07,980 --> 00:30:14,705
of like proper human communication, but the idea is that you can have hardcore discussions about

00:30:15,085 --> 00:30:18,925
certain elements without being like jumping over someone's feeling.

00:30:18,925 --> 00:30:24,750
Because often the, I think a lot of people are making decisions in a way that they feel like

00:30:24,750 --> 00:30:26,930
it happened, and I don't have to have the hard discussion.

00:30:27,150 --> 00:30:33,815
And you, exactly, you would do a can something, you can try something, and then also go in and

00:30:33,815 --> 00:30:39,360
say like, okay, we need to have a talk about this, and it can be very like high leveled and be fine.

00:30:39,420 --> 00:30:44,220
Speaker 1: So, yeah. To comment on what you said, I think I absolutely agree.

00:30:44,220 --> 00:30:48,725
I think I said, like, the reason why it's sometimes hard is twofold.

00:30:48,725 --> 00:30:53,125
So first, I mentioned that, yeah, that's it's it's about the competencies or or being able to

00:30:53,125 --> 00:31:01,450
work in particular context. 2nd is second thing is exactly what you said, which is interest.

00:31:01,510 --> 00:31:04,635
I also call it sometimes obsession, obsessing about things.

00:31:04,715 --> 00:31:09,835
So for instance, I think in terms of our group that focuses on strategic things, these are group

00:31:09,915 --> 00:31:15,789
this is a group that actually, like, is skilled in making that kind of decisions or thinking

00:31:15,789 --> 00:31:19,549
those terms, but also these are the people that are obsessed about it. Right?

00:31:19,549 --> 00:31:21,664
Speaker 2: Yeah. But I think that's also fine.

00:31:21,664 --> 00:31:24,245
If you tell people like, Hey, you can join this group.

00:31:24,625 --> 00:31:29,460
You have these things we need to accomplish and we currently need whatever we need, and there's

00:31:29,460 --> 00:31:34,980
a certain commitment that people can also be like, Hey, I wanna come, I wanna commit to that,

00:31:34,980 --> 00:31:39,125
but there should maybe also be, not say trial period, but it's the same thing when you have,

00:31:39,125 --> 00:31:41,445
like, you hire someone, what do you do?

00:31:41,445 --> 00:31:46,580
Probation period is that people start, and then you might have ability where also some people

00:31:46,580 --> 00:31:51,860
can be like, you can join 1 or 2 meetings of that team and see like, how, what are they doing?

00:31:51,860 --> 00:31:55,434
Is that, is that the right thing for me that then they know when they commit?

00:31:55,434 --> 00:32:00,815
It's not just, but I call 2 meetings, and then I walk out because it's not interesting.

00:32:01,350 --> 00:32:08,070
But I totally agree because at the end of the day, if people just jumping around, then not helpful

00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:10,810
either, because you need to accomplish things. Sure.

00:32:12,745 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: In that environment, that is with, self organized, self managed, Like, what's the way to handle other performance?

00:32:23,380 --> 00:32:24,260
Speaker 2: I mean, the thing yeah.

00:32:24,260 --> 00:32:31,275
This is the hard but this is the one which I I'm actually the most the most the most obsessed

00:32:31,415 --> 00:32:37,520
why I really think ways of self organizing could be really beneficial is because what happened

00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,540
these days, if someone doesn't perform, usually takes years.

00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,280
If it's not too probabious, it takes years to people to figure out.

00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:51,405
Then what happens is like, you have a manager who's busy by on, on, on their own doing stuff.

00:32:52,265 --> 00:32:54,665
And then the perform, the person just never performs.

00:32:54,665 --> 00:33:00,410
And somehow people always think like, yeah, but their manager should should see it.

00:33:00,410 --> 00:33:01,210
Why don't they see it?

00:33:01,210 --> 00:33:03,770
Why is not managing addressing it? Why?

00:33:03,770 --> 00:33:05,385
And we always have the personal project.

00:33:05,385 --> 00:33:10,985
Usually, it takes a while, but then maybe if they collect feedback, those people feel comfortable

00:33:10,985 --> 00:33:14,879
to speak up, because sometimes they're shaking in bad to be like, yeah, but that's my colleague.

00:33:14,879 --> 00:33:18,879
I still don't like the performance, but, then they get fired and like, oh, there's all these

00:33:18,879 --> 00:33:25,615
like thing going around, but then you somehow avoid the element that that person's eating the

00:33:25,615 --> 00:33:28,835
wrong job or completed the wrong company.

00:33:29,054 --> 00:33:34,880
And it should be addressed swiftly, because if you don't address it fast, everyone around pays the price.

00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:41,539
And I think in in hierarchical organization, you have it so often that people just go by potentially

00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:49,635
for years, completely underperforming, and also being completely demotivated, because no human

00:33:49,695 --> 00:33:52,649
being likes to not to contribute.

00:33:52,950 --> 00:33:58,390
So quite often, if they don't contribute, there's either personal issues going on, they're in

00:33:58,390 --> 00:34:01,835
the wrong job, but are fearful to say something.

00:34:02,455 --> 00:34:08,740
And at some point, if you go sit on for too long, they just are fine with what they do and nothing changes.

00:34:08,740 --> 00:34:16,200
And I really believe that the hardest part in more self organization is you have to address these element with peers.

00:34:17,775 --> 00:34:25,420
But what's usually happening with peers, if I address it and I go to my colleague, what is the first thing I say? You're always lazy.

00:34:25,420 --> 00:34:28,539
You don't do this, and and I haven't seen you doing that.

00:34:28,539 --> 00:34:30,799
And then last week, I had to pick it up.

00:34:32,385 --> 00:34:38,385
What's the channel average or above fair majority response of that person?

00:34:38,385 --> 00:34:46,390
They feel threatened, attacked, and they start either not listening anymore and turn away and

00:34:46,390 --> 00:34:49,210
ignore, or they start lashing out.

00:34:49,645 --> 00:34:53,345
And then what you have is a conflict situation.

00:34:54,365 --> 00:35:01,550
And to actually be able to have that discussion to be like, what do you observe? What's your need? What's your request?

00:35:01,550 --> 00:35:07,974
Get that person to understand, hey, you're not, you're not picking up your Slack It's not an easy discussion.

00:35:08,035 --> 00:35:15,970
And obviously, if it's a team, multiple people saying is also not easy, and then you have to

00:35:15,970 --> 00:35:18,849
be careful in that situation also that not mobbing is starting.

00:35:18,849 --> 00:35:25,145
Because if every 8 people pointing to 1, you pretty quickly, probably in a situation where the

00:35:25,145 --> 00:35:31,970
people feel more, but if you find the right way to communicate that, I personally believe you

00:35:31,970 --> 00:35:37,109
can spot under performance, not spot it.

00:35:37,335 --> 00:35:42,135
People would see it as quickly, but you would address it much quicker than before.

00:35:42,135 --> 00:35:44,235
It was like, oh, you have to talk to HR.

00:35:44,455 --> 00:35:45,735
You have to talk to the boss.

00:35:45,735 --> 00:35:48,460
The boss feels hates having this conversation.

00:35:48,599 --> 00:35:50,059
Maybe it's his best buddy.

00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:57,035
So that that nothing gets done because I don't I don't threaten the situation with friendship with my best buddy.

00:35:57,035 --> 00:36:06,769
So that's kind of a bit what what I feel could free up a bit that ownership, also that issue

00:36:06,769 --> 00:36:15,345
where you have, like, with with a lot of employees, sometimes have a complain mode. This is not working. That is not working. This person is underperforming.

00:36:15,484 --> 00:36:18,865
Nothing gets done, and I can't do anything because I'm not in management.

00:36:19,860 --> 00:36:26,200
And if you take that away and say, we are the team, like if the problem is big enough, then own it.

00:36:26,945 --> 00:36:31,845
If you're frustrated about something, you can suggest we need to have we need to do x, y, zed.

00:36:32,625 --> 00:36:34,405
Is someone willing to help me?

00:36:34,490 --> 00:36:39,710
Or if the problem is not big enough, it won't be done, but no one can complain because you have

00:36:40,089 --> 00:36:47,894
the ability to either take ownership or go directly to the persons personal persons who are

00:36:47,894 --> 00:36:54,170
responsible and request that it would that they do something, because maybe it's also somewhere described.

00:36:54,170 --> 00:36:56,670
There's a role, there's a purpose, someone has the responsibility.

00:36:57,735 --> 00:37:01,895
So you can go, but these are not easy discussions because you ask for something and the other

00:37:01,895 --> 00:37:07,380
people might feel threatened that they're being called out, but that's human life.

00:37:07,380 --> 00:37:09,220
I mean, that's, that's the life in the family.

00:37:09,220 --> 00:37:10,600
That's the life with friends.

00:37:11,140 --> 00:37:13,620
No one gets told they don't do their job.

00:37:13,620 --> 00:37:15,140
No one likes this, but it's

00:37:16,095 --> 00:37:21,715
Speaker 1: So, the takeaway here is start with the right recruitment and then build a culture of feedback,

00:37:22,415 --> 00:37:28,599
learn people, teach people how to provide feedback, how to own the feedback, and things like that.

00:37:28,740 --> 00:37:34,095
Speaker 2: A lot of people you see exactly, like, they send people in these courses, usually after 1, I

00:37:34,095 --> 00:37:40,914
think often after a year, bit after a year, so they start realizing we need people to to to

00:37:41,055 --> 00:37:46,170
send through this type of practice, yeah, giving feedback or non white, whatever it is, but

00:37:46,170 --> 00:37:47,850
you need to be able to speak with each other.

00:37:47,850 --> 00:37:53,705
That's the hardest part, but I think you will learn for life, because the same concept you can

00:37:53,705 --> 00:37:57,465
use at home, with friends, with family, because it's the same thing.

00:37:57,465 --> 00:38:02,570
You work, you're together with a group of people, and you need to have a conversation, which

00:38:02,570 --> 00:38:06,270
is on on on eye to eye and not from top down.

00:38:06,570 --> 00:38:09,290
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. That was great talking to you.

00:38:09,290 --> 00:38:10,475
Thank you for those insights.

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