From Engineer to Leader : A Journey of Growth and Insight

00:09 - 00:15
My name's Matt, and I will be talking to Yenny Chung about leadership insights, team empathy, and continuous growth.

00:16 - 00:19
Last time when we, when we met, we were discussing the change management.

00:19 - 00:25
So, I mean, the rapid changes, significant lay off layoffs, enterprise level rapid changes.

00:25 - 00:31
So I know that you have been in a pure organization and you experienced the turbulent times,

00:31 - 00:33
and especially, like, last year are turbulent.

00:33 - 00:41
And I think many, leaders in tech, they are trying to look for some examples or lessons learned

00:41 - 00:44
from other leaders, regarding the change management.

00:44 - 00:50
So I'm just wondering if you have some thoughts about this topic that you could share with the listeners.

00:51 - 00:56
Yeah. Well, first of all, I think I'm still on the learning phase. No?

00:56 - 01:02
I think a challenge in it is regarding, like, a level at which you're at, I think it's definitely

01:03 - 01:09
much harder to think about when you're at a level where you're managing other leaders. Right?

01:09 - 01:14
So if you're not directly doing the change management yourself, then the role becomes very much

01:14 - 01:20
in how do you rally the leadership team that you're working with so that they can transmit the

01:20 - 01:22
right messaging to their reports.

01:22 - 01:27
And I think this is still something that I feel like I have a lot to learn still.

01:28 - 01:32
I think, like, change management comes in a lot of facets then.

01:32 - 01:37
You know, one area, it could be on layoffs, like in reduction, but also in changing of the ways

01:37 - 01:40
of working, for example, that also tends to be really turbulent.

01:40 - 01:46
I think the best that, you know, at my level where I manage a leadership team, what I can do

01:46 - 01:51
is to bring clarity to the leadership team, Like, I provide them with documentation, diagrams.

01:51 - 01:59
I do, like, a good job in, like, a town hall setting or an all human setting so that I can set the vision fairly clear.

02:00 - 02:03
So that, like, in a sense when they start getting pushed back from the team, they will have

02:03 - 02:05
the material to rely on or not.

02:06 - 02:12
But the way I think about change management as well, I think it's it is also to brace for the

02:12 - 02:15
negativity and the pushback immediately afterwards.

02:16 - 02:21
Like, to be honest, no one really likes abrupt changes, but like in startup setting, in fast

02:21 - 02:25
moving industry, fast moving market, that's, inevitable.

02:26 - 02:34
And so, like, as a leader also to expect that roller coaster emotional perf, not that you will, you'll get hit with.

02:34 - 02:42
So, you know, first people might might appear surprised or they might they might appear as,

02:42 - 02:49
you know, there's denial or, maybe anger that can also manifest. Right?

02:49 - 02:58
At one point, it might switch to, you know, pointing fingers, blaming, stonewalling, typical, like, conflict, mitigation strategy.

02:59 - 03:03
And at one point of the curve, then they realized that, oh, okay.

03:03 - 03:07
This is actually the change, then they would move to, like, another mental state. No?

03:07 - 03:15
So I think it is inevitable in some sense, and bracing ourselves for, that emotion is also keeping

03:15 - 03:17
our sanity a one way to keep our sanity.

03:19 - 03:20
Awesome. Thank you for that.

03:21 - 03:28
And regarding the the the culture and the changes, you have pretty international experience

03:28 - 03:30
while working on a product or engineering side.

03:30 - 03:32
So you work in, San Francisco.

03:33 - 03:35
You work, for quite a while in Germany.

03:35 - 03:41
So you are familiar with, let's say, European and US culture of building the the the the product.

03:42 - 03:48
And, like, those companies were pretty successful or are still pretty successful, like Yelp or Rapid.

03:48 - 03:51
They were founded by, Anderson Horowitz, like, big companies.

03:52 - 03:58
So there's probably a lot of net like, the future world people from and leaders from who you learn.

03:58 - 04:05
And, like, from my perspective, I'm always interested in, like, work work culture, like, the

04:05 - 04:10
time zone maybe problems and the cultural differences, regarding managing people, like, that

04:10 - 04:15
you have experienced between those organizations working here in Germany and San Francisco or

04:15 - 04:19
between, like, you know, headquarter in US and and Germany?

04:20 - 04:23
Yeah. I see that as a very interesting challenge.

04:25 - 04:31
Like, definitely, when I was working at Yelp, right, like, we, we are a office in the Hamburg site.

04:31 - 04:37
So, mostly, we have a very international environment in Hamburg, but, at the same time, it's

04:37 - 04:43
also mainly from European regions, maybe Eastern Europe as well, from Russia, also some folks from China.

04:43 - 04:50
But then in the US, then I also sense that there's a, this main culture, right, is the US culture.

04:50 - 04:54
So in terms of communication, there are actually a lot of anecdotes. Right?

04:54 - 04:59
For example, when we do all hands, right, the European members tend to be very interactive and

04:59 - 05:03
they ask a lot of questions, sometimes also with a more challenging tone.

05:04 - 05:10
I think in the US, that was received less well, and they also, like, perceive our office as

05:10 - 05:12
somewhat more challenging to manage. Right?

05:12 - 05:19
Because, like, an open question is more viewed as, like, like an open challenge. No?

05:20 - 05:24
But then on the European side, actually, like, talking to folks. Right?

05:24 - 05:28
If you don't receive any questions in all hands, that's when you worry, no?

05:28 - 05:30
Because people aren't showing any interest.

05:30 - 05:36
So I think depending the audience you're talking to, their reaction, there's also a different interpretation.

05:37 - 05:43
Also, in the US, when you present, it's pretty common to use your own example and your own career,

05:43 - 05:48
like, a lot of things about yourself now when you talk to people, and then that doesn't end

05:48 - 05:51
well with European audience because, like, no one wants to hear hear about that. No.

05:51 - 05:55
They wanna talk about, like, sex more, like, really from the first principle.

05:56 - 06:00
So, like, when I do conference talks, for example, I will also adjust it to kind of cater to

06:00 - 06:02
the audience on what they're looking for.

06:03 - 06:07
Nice. Nice. And thank you for the for the thoughts.

06:09 - 06:16
And in in in your case, you work as a VP of product. Right?

06:16 - 06:23
You have the engineering background, which is, really helpful, but, like, to work on both of

06:23 - 06:26
the roles and and use and you move more into the products.

06:26 - 06:34
I'm just wondering in your case, why you choose this way, or you like working on both, and how

06:34 - 06:36
this is different for you.

06:37 - 06:41
Yeah. That's a really good question. Yeah.

06:41 - 06:48
Definitely, like, from my education and from my first opportunities, I was, I was a software engineer. Right?

06:48 - 06:56
I also noticed that, while I like problem solving, though, I'm less into the nitty gritty of

06:56 - 06:58
the how of how to do things.

06:58 - 07:00
Like, my joy has always come from okay.

07:00 - 07:03
We managed to finish something as a team.

07:03 - 07:07
And then even when I was an engineer, I focused a lot on, okay, how do we make my team more efficient?

07:08 - 07:13
How can we make sure we distribute work in a way that we don't step on, one another's toes?

07:13 - 07:19
So it was pretty obvious to me that, like, my passion lie more on the vantage one side of things.

07:20 - 07:27
And at one point, like, throughout my career, I was also working at startups now, During this

07:27 - 07:33
market where there was huge expansions, but at the same time, like, now things are really slowing down. Right?

07:34 - 07:39
And it's also apparent that, when you get a lot of PC funding, for example, you need to use

07:39 - 07:42
it very wisely, and your product needs to make money at some point.

07:43 - 07:49
And so a lot of the thoughts that, I was putting into the company actually ended up being in

07:49 - 07:54
the product side or in the, like, the product operation side on how we can come up with these,

07:55 - 08:01
features that can solve our customers' needs and, yeah, to be more targeted on that front. No?

08:02 - 08:07
So gradually, I think it was actually a very organic movement, and especially during this climate,

08:07 - 08:12
then I also realized that, you know, no matter how how much how hard you try on the engineering

08:12 - 08:15
side, if you don't build the right things, then everything is still in vain.

08:15 - 08:21
And that's how I kind of organic organically drifted to the to the product side of things.

08:22 - 08:29
So I could assume that the metrics could be really important on your kind of level, like your

08:29 - 08:35
engineering or product level, and there is a lot of talks about the Dora Metrics space metrics.

08:35 - 08:38
A lot of technical leaders are using it.

08:39 - 08:42
You know, what to use? What works for you?

08:43 - 08:45
Like, how do you approach those?

08:47 - 08:49
Can I give an unpopular opinion?

08:50 - 08:55
That's a thing that you In me, the trick Oh, I I am allowed to. Okay. That's great.

08:56 - 09:01
Let's let's hope my my former bosses or my current bosses may may not be listening.

09:01 - 09:09
So I I actually I'm of the contrary opinion that, like, metrics is, like, metrics is an indication

09:10 - 09:12
of problems, and you want to use it to debug.

09:12 - 09:16
But eventually, if you have a small enough organization, if you're not growing very rapidly,

09:17 - 09:20
you might not need to rely on that much about metrics.

09:20 - 09:25
Like, honestly, a lot of the information organically flows to you if you're doing good one on ones.

09:25 - 09:32
Like, engineers are very open about their problems, as you might imagine, about where it is

09:32 - 09:38
blocking their workflow and, like, when when your organization is not, like, scaling up rapidly

09:38 - 09:43
or if you're not dealing with, like, trust issues between departments, then I think that time

09:43 - 09:48
is better used to really understand these bottlenecks through qualitative feedback.

09:48 - 09:53
And then if you want to report up, you can also do something more qualitative.

09:53 - 09:59
Now you can write like, draw some diagrams on where it is, the engineers are wasting time or,

09:59 - 10:04
like, problems with developer productivity rather than looking at metrics, because metrics is the first step. Right?

10:04 - 10:06
In the end, it's really to come up with a plan.

10:06 - 10:12
So if you have a strong enough confidence that this is the root cause, then it's more useful

10:12 - 10:13
to deal with those instead.

10:15 - 10:17
Awesome. Thank you. Uh-uh.

10:17 - 10:22
Also, like, as you know, right, engineering metrics, sometimes it it can also be quite arbitrary.

10:22 - 10:27
I mean, what are you going to count then lines of code, like number of commits, number of PRs? Right?

10:27 - 10:33
So I mean, yeah, Dora is one way, definitely, but then we should also be quite critical about

10:33 - 10:35
what exactly are we tracking.

10:36 - 10:37
Yeah. I actually agree with you.

10:37 - 10:38
You need to be pragmatic.

10:39 - 10:45
Like, from, like, about the from my perspective, I really like to have some kind of metrics

10:45 - 10:50
to have something to tackle, like, to see some kind of progress.

10:50 - 10:56
Like, you know, like, I remember when we are organization without any OPRs, and there were some metrics.

10:56 - 11:05
But, like, I think the the the those metrics could show, like, highlight the priority that you

11:05 - 11:08
have on a given quarter, right, for engineering teams and so on.

11:08 - 11:13
So you don't have to be so, about the metrics.

11:13 - 11:18
You don't have to be so picky that you say, like, you need this exact number, but Yeah.

11:18 - 11:20
Kind of like the the guide us. Right?

11:20 - 11:22
Like, if you know what what I mean. Like,

11:23 - 11:27
Definitely. That, personally, I prefer having a really good story.

11:27 - 11:33
So, like, if you can are taking, like, the strategy very well, right, then, like, maybe like,

11:33 - 11:36
sure, metrics can help tell the story. Right?

11:36 - 11:40
But if you can give the direction in a way where people understand what you're getting at and

11:40 - 11:43
how everything kind of is put together. Right?

11:43 - 11:46
I think the interesting thing is about, like, technical strategy. Right?

11:46 - 11:52
Because, like, I I think in this area, it's less about just the metrics say, okay, we should

11:52 - 11:55
focus on observability, for example, like, in this quarter.

11:55 - 12:01
I think much more important is, like, it's congruent steps now that you do together.

12:02 - 12:08
For example, if you want to increase observability, that's that might be because your organization is scaling up rapidly.

12:08 - 12:11
It's harder to ramp up new people towards system.

12:11 - 12:17
That's why you want, like, easy to access dashboards, for example, so that everybody can debug,

12:17 - 12:18
everybody can go on call.

12:18 - 12:23
If you're in a smaller organization, then you might want to focus more on knowledge sharing

12:24 - 12:27
itself for people to understand the software in-depth.

12:27 - 12:33
Maybe like the dashboards and, you know, making very, very clear fancy dashboards is less of

12:33 - 12:36
a a a priority there.

12:36 - 12:38
Like, it always needs to come together as a story.

12:38 - 12:40
I think that is more important.

12:41 - 12:48
That's a valid point. I really like this this comparison to a story that, it kinda like, the

12:48 - 12:53
the story, the context, the so so I think it makes a lot of sense.

12:55 - 13:00
And, like, let's, let's discuss more those pain points of the of the leaders.

13:00 - 13:06
Like, you you were on the both sides of on the VP of, engineering side or or director kind of

13:06 - 13:07
level, and now the product.

13:08 - 13:15
I mean, like, the metrics and, leading people might be, like, a huge pain point at work.

13:16 - 13:23
And I'm just wondering from your perspective, and your career for you, what what are the biggest

13:23 - 13:31
pain pain points or where biggest pain points in those, VP or director level on a product or engineering side.

13:31 - 13:34
Maybe something that people don't see from the outside. Right?

13:34 - 13:36
Something that is not the right view. Right?

13:36 - 13:41
You check, like, the the, you know, the job requirements, and there, everything is perfect.

13:41 - 13:43
When you check the company website, everything is perfect.

13:43 - 13:49
But when you go inside, you probably meet some problems that are not so obvious during the interview docs. Right?

13:50 - 13:54
And I'm just wondering what do have you have you met some of those problems?

13:54 - 13:56
I mean, how you you dealt with them?

13:57 - 13:58
Yeah. Of course, there are a lot of problems.

13:58 - 14:00
Otherwise, these roles don't exist. No?

14:00 - 14:06
I think probably the harder hardest thing about the role is, like, how lonely you would be in that role. No?

14:07 - 14:15
Because, you know, you you you you ask a manager, but your manager is the CEO or maybe equivalent. No?

14:15 - 14:17
So there are stakeholders that you need to manage.

14:17 - 14:23
They're not necessarily a manager in the sense that say if you're a line manager, you have a director as your boss. Right?

14:23 - 14:24
They are there to guide you.

14:24 - 14:25
They are there to support you.

14:26 - 14:32
But then if you're, you know, if you report to, you know, the CEO, then definitely they're a stakeholder.

14:32 - 14:35
And everything that you say, you need to really be careful. No?

14:35 - 14:39
Because otherwise, maybe if you say that, well, actually, I have too many people in the team,

14:39 - 14:42
then it like, down the lane, they'll be like, oh, you know, you said you're there.

14:42 - 14:43
Too many people in the team.

14:43 - 14:45
Why don't we just, like, reduce your budget? Right?

14:45 - 14:48
So so so just be very careful.

14:48 - 14:50
And at the same time, you're kind of in the middle. Right?

14:50 - 14:57
Because your, direct team, like the team of management, sees you as the leadership figure, but

14:57 - 15:02
what they don't see is that you also have a boss to manage, right, or other departments to manage.

15:02 - 15:08
So it's not like like sometimes you also don't have a lot of regular room in terms of how you would make decisions.

15:09 - 15:15
So I think the hard part is, like, how can you foster your immediate team, like, the management

15:15 - 15:21
team to also see you as part of their team instead of, like, the boss, you know?

15:21 - 15:26
Because in the end, your role is still to facilitate that we can make decisions that is, you

15:26 - 15:32
know, good enough on all sides, like, that the CEO can approve of, other department leads can

15:32 - 15:37
approve of, and the leadership team is confident enough to execute on them.

15:37 - 15:44
So I think that is probably something that is not explicit in the in the job description. Right? That okay.

15:44 - 15:49
Well, while the the role sounds really fancy, but you're actually middle management too.

15:53 - 15:57
And, you mentioned the line management roles. And Yeah.

15:57 - 16:02
I I recall that last time we talked about some, interesting topic around, like, differences

16:03 - 16:08
between senior management and line management role, and differences between them.

16:08 - 16:12
And, like, you were emphasizing the empathy thing.

16:13 - 16:16
So maybe you could elaborate more on that because this was really interesting.

16:16 - 16:23
Yeah. I think, yeah, that also feeds into the difficulty for, like, a VP of a director role.

16:24 - 16:29
As a line manager, I and that is also, like, times I think of very fondly, like, you get a lot

16:29 - 16:35
of touch points with the team, and the closer you get with the people, then obviously the suggestions

16:35 - 16:40
that you have on how to solve their problems become better, right, because you're very much on the ground.

16:40 - 16:46
But then for our director and for our VP, the system is that you wouldn't have the time or capacity

16:46 - 16:51
to meet with every single person with the same kind of, frequency. Right?

16:51 - 16:56
That also doesn't facilitate, you know, like, your time management that just doesn't work out,

16:56 - 17:00
but at the same time, that would mean that your decision making is more flawed because you don't

17:00 - 17:01
know exactly what is going on.

17:01 - 17:06
So I think, and at the same time, it's the rapport as well because as EM, you have a lot of

17:06 - 17:10
opportunity to get huge support and, like, very strong support from the team.

17:10 - 17:17
But as a director, they always view you as leadership or management. They don't put names. Like, it's very funny. Yeah?

17:17 - 17:22
Like, people always say, oh, it's management that decided or it's leadership that decide, but you know that's you.

17:24 - 17:29
And so because you're far away, and also also finding these touch points with a team and striking

17:29 - 17:34
a balance on how do you keep yourself accessible to the rest of the team and that they trust

17:34 - 17:37
you, they can tell you feedback is very important.

17:37 - 17:39
Otherwise, it's like a flawed feedback loop. Right?

17:39 - 17:43
If less people tell you things like, you know, give you feedback that you're doing, you said

17:43 - 17:45
you're on the wrong track. Right?

17:45 - 17:49
The more wrong things you do, the less you hear, and it really spins our control.

17:49 - 17:54
So I try to also set up these you know, I do set up some skip levels from time to time, and

17:54 - 18:00
I also have, like, an office hour every week so that the team can drop in to, talk about their concerns.

18:00 - 18:02
But, of course, it takes a lot of nudging.

18:03 - 18:06
Engineers are also by nature not as, like, oh, Kawena would say.

18:06 - 18:12
So you really have to try and promote and, you know, get to them to really hear, like, how they're thinking.

18:12 - 18:19
And I think that is a like a like a key, secret sauce to to doing well in this role.

18:21 - 18:25
And this, those those office hours, like, tell me more about it.

18:25 - 18:26
How do you approach it?

18:26 - 18:31
Because, like, let me tell you my experience. You already mentioned it.

18:31 - 18:34
It's really difficult, especially if somebody's introvert.

18:34 - 18:38
Like, engineers are are really often introvert. Yeah.

18:38 - 18:44
It's really difficult to kind of, like, get in those conversations and, like, during the office

18:44 - 18:48
hours, not many people were interested, like, when I was doing it, right, as a leader.

18:48 - 18:49
Oh, I see.

18:49 - 18:54
A bit of, I'm really I'm really open.

18:54 - 19:00
The people still kind of feel that if you are really high, they're really cautious about what they're saying.

19:01 - 19:04
And especially if you are doing it, for instance, remotely, it's really difficult.

19:04 - 19:07
And I'm just wondering, how does it work for you?

19:07 - 19:11
Like, do you have, like, many people coming? It's, like, always online.

19:11 - 19:14
And, like, how do you how do you approach it? How does it work

19:14 - 19:17
for you? Yeah. That's a that's a good question.

19:18 - 19:23
And, I think I think I don't also have, like, a magic answer for that, and I'm also trying hard. Right?

19:23 - 19:25
I think it's just to be persistent.

19:25 - 19:27
Like, one thing I learned is that, okay.

19:27 - 19:29
Well, this time, knowing come. Right?

19:29 - 19:31
I talk to all the managers. Hey.

19:31 - 19:32
Encourage your reports to come.

19:32 - 19:34
I post on the public channel.

19:34 - 19:36
Every time I do a town hall, I'll be like, okay.

19:36 - 19:42
If you have questions about accent white, do come and talk about it if that's an area I'm super interested in.

19:42 - 19:48
And then gradually, people get the idea, especially if you can you know, especially when you

19:48 - 19:52
say you're looking for feedback on specific areas, then people tend to come more.

19:53 - 19:59
Another area is also, I think, need to we need to, like, show a bit of a vulnerability as well,

19:59 - 20:01
like, to show the human side.

20:01 - 20:06
Otherwise, as you say, the title makes it very scary, and they seem that you're very high up

20:06 - 20:08
in your management and your leadership.

20:08 - 20:11
Now you need to show also, like, the the human face.

20:11 - 20:16
Now and I do that, I go to the office fairly often, so, like, every 2 weeks.

20:16 - 20:18
So so I actually live in a different city. Right?

20:18 - 20:27
But I go to Berlin every 2 weeks or so to, like, just grab lunch with people and, you know, be accessible and, yeah.

20:27 - 20:30
I think I think little things go a long way.

20:30 - 20:34
But then when people show up, then we never shy away from topics. Right?

20:34 - 20:39
Because whenever I ask them about, okay, what are we doing well at the moment, and, what are

20:39 - 20:40
some things we can improve on?

20:40 - 20:43
Engineers always have things they pull to improve on.

20:43 - 20:45
That's the nature of engineering. Right?

20:45 - 20:47
We all learn to optimize.

20:47 - 20:48
We all learn to okay.

20:48 - 20:49
How do you be more efficient?

20:49 - 20:53
That's why if you ask people these questions, you know, like, it it just flows.

20:55 - 20:56
Awesome. Thank you for that.

20:56 - 21:02
For me, really inspiring what you said is, to get some kind of topic around the which we could,

21:02 - 21:04
like, start the discussion maybe.

21:04 - 21:11
So, this this could be, like like like, lesson learned for me, so to say, for today.

21:12 - 21:14
We're all learning. We're all learning.

21:16 - 21:23
I'm wondering about your opinion about the remote hybrid on-site thing.

21:23 - 21:29
So recently, we see, like, from the last year, the pushback from the companies.

21:29 - 21:31
Even Zoom is saying, like, hey.

21:31 - 21:32
Get back to the office.

21:34 - 21:39
So especially for this company, it's really weird to hear, to be to be honest. So I'm But,

21:39 - 21:40
isn't it? Yeah.

21:40 - 21:47
Ironic. Yeah. But I'm wondering what is your opinion about, about the this kind of work setup. What works for you?

21:47 - 21:51
How do you, see it in the future how it should work?

21:53 - 21:57
I actually think that the so the, how do I put it?

21:57 - 22:03
I think probably easiest is if you have all in office or all remote because in this case, it's

22:03 - 22:06
just, easier to to set up now.

22:06 - 22:11
For example, you wouldn't have a situation where half the people are in the room, half the people are outside.

22:11 - 22:18
But I think with the with the times, right, we cannot expect that everyone is in the office during the COVID times. We also hire differently.

22:19 - 22:22
So I think in each company, there are remote folks. No?

22:22 - 22:25
So we need to figure out how to do the hybrid situation well or remote.

22:26 - 22:28
So for hybrid, like, there are different things.

22:28 - 22:31
Like, how do you even do the video, for example?

22:31 - 22:34
Can you have everyone switch on their video even if they're in the room?

22:34 - 22:37
Makes it more inclusive to the people who are calling in.

22:38 - 22:44
But a lot of the things that promote hybrid or remote working is actually just good in general.

22:44 - 22:50
For example, have clear agenda, have clear documentation, like, embrace a more async working

22:50 - 22:53
lifestyle instead of always being in meeting. That is helpful.

22:53 - 22:59
The more remote, company goes though, the more we need to emphasize on the social aspect.

22:59 - 23:07
As we talked about, you know, like, if you don't meet the team for a while, then you become leadership and management again. Right?

23:07 - 23:13
So you need to have this type of, social connection often, and I think the more higher up you

23:13 - 23:15
go, the more you need to show your face.

23:15 - 23:21
And in some cases, if not in person, you need to find a way that's relatable for people for you. No?

23:21 - 23:27
And I think it's also important for the, for the for the company to have these social events

23:27 - 23:31
so that we can get together maybe every 2, 3 months or so.

23:31 - 23:33
We have, like, team gatherings where we fly people in.

23:33 - 23:36
Well, that is not environmentally friendly.

23:36 - 23:41
Maybe we get the trade in or, you know, like, have people come to one place to to celebrate

23:42 - 23:44
or to to, connect together. No?

23:44 - 23:51
So, like, I think that would be the strategy then if you go the hybrid or, remote, angle now.

23:54 - 23:59
And lastly, the the last question that I wanted to ask you, personally, and I think a lot of

23:59 - 24:05
leaders are always looking for resources, to help them grow, to help them learn something new.

24:05 - 24:11
And I'm just wondering, in your case, are there any books or maybe conferences or other resources

24:11 - 24:17
that, you would recommend to other, like, fellow tech leaders that have been particularly helpful

24:18 - 24:20
to you, in your journey as a leader?

24:21 - 24:25
Yeah. So for conference, I would recommend the lead dev series now.

24:26 - 24:30
They have locations in the US, in Germany, in the UK.

24:30 - 24:36
When I transitioned from an individual contributor to management and I rely a lot on their resources,

24:37 - 24:39
They don't just do just do conferences.

24:39 - 24:41
There are also articles at which they post.

24:41 - 24:47
I myself also wrote there, for for a period of time, so that is helpful for me to also get a

24:47 - 24:50
pulse of what people are talk about. Right?

24:50 - 24:55
And for example, managing now is also different from managing during a time where there's rapid

24:55 - 24:58
growth, right, so like the content that you get is also different.

24:59 - 25:04
In terms of book, there are so many good management, books. Right?

25:04 - 25:10
For management particular, I recommend Making a Manager by Julie Dror.

25:11 - 25:12
She's a design leader at Facebook.

25:13 - 25:18
I think she nailed the definition of what a manager means to her. Right?

25:18 - 25:23
So your short term goal would to be would be to maximize the outcome, you know, of this team,

25:23 - 25:28
but then long term, it is to make sure that your team has the capacity to take on new challenges,

25:29 - 25:31
to be flexible for long term challenges.

25:31 - 25:34
So you're as a manager, you need to balance both roles. Right?

25:34 - 25:38
So if you just think about the short term, you just squeeze people's productivity, you make

25:38 - 25:43
them unhappy, but it delivers, But the long term that you wouldn't have a team anywhere, everybody

25:43 - 25:46
quits, and then no one is growing in their role.

25:46 - 25:47
So I think in the end, it's always a balance.

25:47 - 25:52
But if you always think about growth, right, like, then then there's no outcome short in the

25:52 - 25:54
short run, then that also doesn't work.

25:55 - 25:59
And then the, like, the next book I'll recommend is called Talent is Overrated.

26:00 - 26:04
I think that changes the way I think about managing people.

26:04 - 26:11
So what it is about is that they don't believe in, okay, talent is just coming coming from out

26:11 - 26:14
out of nowhere as if it's just born into the genes. Right?

26:14 - 26:20
They more talk about, like, it's all about opportunity, how you spend your time and deliberate practice.

26:20 - 26:25
So if you're not good at something, then consider how much time actually have you spent on holding

26:25 - 26:31
that skill and in in what way as well, like are you getting rapid feedback to help you get better?

26:31 - 26:37
So I think in that case, it also helps me actually reflect how I get good in certain skills versus not.

26:37 - 26:42
And I think it's just much more a positive and growth mindset, the right mentality. No?

26:42 - 26:49
So I would recommend, engineering managers or, yeah, any leader or people leaders to to read that book.

26:50 - 26:51
Awesome. Thank you, Jenny, for that.

26:52 - 26:58
I really like the second thing about the talent, because, like, I was always, like, playing

26:58 - 27:03
instruments and, like, I always heard that you need to have a talent to play an instrument or guitar.

27:03 - 27:05
But the thing is the same as at work.

27:05 - 27:07
It's a matter of I use that.

27:07 - 27:08
It's a matter of practice.

27:08 - 27:13
It's a matter of listening the the to the feedback to all from other people and applying it.

27:13 - 27:22
So, I think it makes a lot of sense, and everybody could, apply it, and everybody could learn, anything, I would say.

27:22 - 27:27
Of course, you had some level that really hard to reach, but, I mean, in most of the cases,

27:27 - 27:31
you can be, you know, you can learn to program.

27:31 - 27:35
You can you can learn wherever you want, to be honest. So

27:36 - 27:42
Yeah. I just think that it's a much more positive mindset than thinking that you're born with these limitations. Right?

27:42 - 27:42
Yeah.

27:42 - 27:47
Instead of thinking about limitations, let's think about very much in a growth mindset, like,

27:47 - 27:52
where where I can get better, how we can practice better, how we can hold into our skills better.

27:53 - 27:58
Awesome. Thank you very much, Jenny, for the for the and for the short and insightful talk.

27:58 - 28:01
I really appreciate your time and your, insights

28:03 - 28:04
here. Oh, thank you as well.

28:04 - 28:06
Thanks for having me, Matt.

28:07 - 28:09
Better tech leadership powered by Brainhub.

28:11 - 28:16
Follow Les Schick on LinkedIn and subscribe to the Better Tech Leadership newsletter.

‍