[ BETTER TECH LEADERSHIP ]

José Ignacio Díaz: Breaking Barriers - The Journey of a Tech Leader in Startup Culture

[ THE SPEAKERS ]

Meet our hosts & guests

Matt Warcholinski
CO-FOUNDER, BRAINHUB

Co-founder of Brainhub, Matt describes himself as a “serial entrepreneur”. Throughout his career, Matt has developed several startups in Germany, wearing many hats- from a marketer to an IT Engineer and customer support specialist. As a host of the Better Tech Leadership podcast, Matt talks about growing successful businesses and the challenges of being a startup founder and investor.

Jose Ignacio Diaz Ordoñez
Chief Technology Officer

Jose Ignacio Diaz Ordoñez is an accomplished CTO and software engineer with over 18 years of experience. He has a proven track record of building exceptional teams, developing innovative products, and driving organizational success. Jose has extensive expertise in software architecture and a passion for team building, delivering top-tier solutions across private banking, telecommunications, startups, and multinational corporations. Currently the CTO at Besso, he previously held the same role at Colivar, Yonder, and CodeCheck AG. His technical skills span cloud computing, project management, scalability, and various programming languages, contributing significantly to the growth of numerous global projects and teams.

Transcript

00:08 - 00:14
My name is Matt, and I will be talking with Jose Ignacio Diaz about strategies for navigating

00:14 - 00:17
layoffs and the intersection of technology and business.

00:18 - 00:22
So, Fozar, you're really seasoned CTO, I would say.

00:22 - 00:24
You work in attack for pretty long time.

00:24 - 00:25
How many years is it already?

00:25 - 00:28
18, I think. 18 years. Well I believe so. Yeah. So you

00:28 - 00:33
are adults now, let's say, in Adecc, we get set. Yes. Yes. Yes.

00:34 - 00:41
You, you are Spanish, but you worked in Amsterdam, like, really hot scene especially for the

00:41 - 00:43
startups a while ago as we discussed it.

00:43 - 00:46
And now for 8 years, you're in Switzerland and we are in Zurich.

00:47 - 00:53
And we were discussing really interesting thing because you told me that Zurich is like the innovation hub here.

00:54 - 00:59
And maybe you could tell tell more about it, why this is innovation hub.

00:59 - 01:05
Because, like, my understanding like, sorry, another thing, was, it's really my understanding

01:05 - 01:09
was it's really hard to launch something here, especially startup because market is so small.

01:09 - 01:12
But it turned I'm wrong.

01:12 - 01:19
Well, Switzerland is, is very specific because we have the DACH region for us.

01:19 - 01:28
So we are reaching to Germany, Austria, and and especially in Zurich, there is, some population

01:28 - 01:34
with a lot of profiles and different backgrounds and tons and tons of rationalities that they

01:34 - 01:36
come together to build new things.

01:37 - 01:45
So what you're gonna find here is a lot of hunger for building new products that new ideas that

01:45 - 01:47
they can they can change the life of people.

01:47 - 01:52
And there is a culture of, doing that.

01:52 - 02:03
There is a lot of, support, especially from from, VCs and and to the community, and there is

02:03 - 02:05
no fear for for failing.

02:05 - 02:15
So that that's, together creates the the the perfect, conditions for people to start, spinning

02:15 - 02:18
off, companies and and products.

02:19 - 02:23
And you told, like, there's a lot of headquarters, right, of, like, big corporations here?

02:23 - 02:31
Yes. So when when we talk about addressable market and we say, like, but how come because Switzerland

02:31 - 02:38
is so small and the population is so specific, and actually we have, like, 4 different official language here.

02:40 - 02:46
We have, as we said, we have a lot of, headquarters of corporations and branches of of, big

02:46 - 02:55
companies that you can reach out and they are very, very open to listen to you, to your product

02:55 - 03:02
and to try out and to and and to start testing if what you can offer is actually a solution for them.

03:02 - 03:10
So it's very small, but there is a lot of big companies here, located in in Zurich.

03:11 - 03:14
And there is some big recession like last year,

03:14 - 03:20
a lot of layoffs in tech, a lot of changes on the market, focus on the productivity.

03:20 - 03:29
Like this 2024, it's kind of like a weird year because I see like a mix of positive signals and negative signals.

03:29 - 03:33
Nobody will know, like, how the year will, you know, evolve. Yeah.

03:33 - 03:37
And I'm wondering how do you see it, from your perspective, Switzerland?

03:37 - 03:39
Because you are here quite a while. Mhmm.

03:39 - 03:45
Do you feel affected by the by those layoffs, by the financing from the VCs? Yes.

03:46 - 03:54
Yes. So I think that the the main problem is that there is a lot of talent that has lost their

03:54 - 03:59
positions, in in big companies, and in small companies.

03:59 - 04:09
So just to name a few, it's Google, Facebook, they they they lay they lay off people, but also affected small companies.

04:09 - 04:11
So you have, 5 people and you fire.

04:11 - 04:16
You need to fire economically speaking to it's it's a huge portion of your company.

04:17 - 04:24
And there is no, a lot of money coming into the into the market from the business, not so easy

04:24 - 04:33
to rise and and to to right now and to start with, a wood sheet money, let's call.

04:34 - 04:40
And, also, the companies are not able to generate such amount of incomes where they can afford

04:40 - 04:47
to hire with risk or to pay, the the salaries that the people should be paid.

04:48 - 04:52
So therefore, the the companies are hiring externally.

04:52 - 04:57
So they are reaching out to external developers, which is also very good, but, you know, there

04:57 - 05:03
is a lot of operation inside where cannot find a place or it's difficult to find a place. The competition is higher.

05:03 - 05:10
So we I think we are experiencing a moment where there is too many people in the market, not

05:10 - 05:17
so many positions, and, I think a lot of people is is just working remotely outside Switzerland,

05:18 - 05:23
and that's a good thing for us because, you know, we can we can find places.

05:24 - 05:29
But this is, yeah, it is a difficult situation right now.

05:29 - 05:32
Are you optimistic about this year and next year? Like

05:32 - 05:35
Yeah. Absolutely. I'm I'm very, very hey. I'm super optimistic. Yeah.

05:35 - 05:38
Because tech is something that change constantly, you know?

05:38 - 05:43
And is is I believe we are it's not the last time.

05:43 - 05:47
It's not the first time that we are experiencing this situation.

05:47 - 05:53
And I think there is going to be a moment, especially with the introduction of, AI technologies

05:53 - 05:58
where new products are being born, where it's evident that you need a lot of money even this

05:58 - 06:03
cost is super expensive, and there is a lot of talent.

06:03 - 06:08
So I think in the moment, especially in Switzerland, in the moment that the companies are gonna

06:08 - 06:15
say see that there is a lot of talent and then a lot of products that can be born here in Zurich,

06:16 - 06:19
and money is going to come.

06:19 - 06:28
Again, companies are gonna be able to to produce revenue, and people is gonna be higher back even from the outside.

06:28 - 06:35
I don't think there won't be enough people here to to supply the demand of what I think we are gonna expect to.

06:36 - 06:39
One more interesting thing that you told me is about

06:42 - 06:45
letting go people here, that that's pretty easy.

06:45 - 06:50
Like, in my in my I was always thinking, like, I put the DACH region, right, in one bucket.

06:50 - 06:54
I think Germany, Austria, and Switzerland and then it's super hard to fire somebody.

06:55 - 06:58
So it's already costly to hire people and fire people.

06:59 - 07:02
But you told us complete the opposite, right?

07:02 - 07:09
Yes. So in Switzerland, usually the standard contract is something like once you pass your,

07:09 - 07:16
probation period, so it's usually between 1 3 months, Then you have your notice period, which

07:16 - 07:19
usually go from 1, 2, to 3 months as well.

07:19 - 07:27
And once you, for example, has to take the the the company needs to take the decision to let

07:27 - 07:34
go someone, you just have to give the the notice, the to the to the person, the reason.

07:34 - 07:43
Usually, it's behind a reason performance, economically speaking. And that's basically it.

07:43 - 07:49
You don't need I mean, I know well the the German market, and you don't need to pass through

07:49 - 07:55
all the, checks and why you are letting letting go of someone.

07:57 - 08:04
Maybe we could talk a bit more about your new venture because this is interesting. Beso, it's billing. Right? Beso.

08:04 - 08:07
And you are really excited about the innovation in the AI.

08:07 - 08:11
So there is, like, a part of AI there. Yes.

08:11 - 08:15
Maybe you could tell a few words because I think you haven't talked before to anybody.

08:15 - 08:17
You are in a still mode, more or less.

08:17 - 08:19
Yes. Yes. I'm in a still mode. Yes.

08:19 - 08:29
So Bezo is is actually, first thing, is an amazing group of people that come together thanks

08:29 - 08:36
to to Philip, the the CEO that that make this possible to to make these people to come together.

08:37 - 08:39
And second, we are solving a real problem in the world.

08:39 - 08:44
So there is the everyone hear about the trading words between countries.

08:45 - 08:55
And with the help of, AI and machine learning, we are going to be able so we are going to we

08:55 - 09:05
are able to solve the tight problems that companies have when they are sending different goods, around the world.

09:05 - 09:19
So our solution will save literally, 1,000,000,000, to these companies. Faster, cheaper.

09:23 - 09:30
That's true. That's true. It's so, yes, we are still developing the the the software, and we

09:30 - 09:34
are, talking with the the first clients that we are having.

09:35 - 09:38
But it's a super exciting opportunity. Again, super innovative.

09:39 - 09:48
The landscape in in Switzerland of companies like this is almost nonexistent, and, it's a crazy idea. It's very ambitious.

09:50 - 09:54
And I don't know if it will be possible to be done in any other country than Switzerland and

09:54 - 09:56
and the US, to be honest.

09:58 - 10:00
Again, because we have a lot of backgrounds here inside.

10:00 - 10:03
So we have people from Greece, from Spain.

10:03 - 10:09
We have a lot of nationalities inside with a lot of expertise come together.

10:09 - 10:16
I think this is essential for developing great products to have a lot of different mindsets inside.

10:18 - 10:25
So you are not the CTO for the first time, and I'm always wondering what are the hardest things,

10:25 - 10:29
in this role that nobody is maybe talking wildly about it, it.

10:29 - 10:33
Like, we're open so open about it that we don't see from the outside.

10:34 - 10:40
I think it's to be honest, there is the mental resilience that you need to have because

10:43 - 10:51
you have with you working with you a lot of, let's say, developers in tech or data scientists

10:51 - 10:59
or designers where they have their own personal problems with their families, with their lives.

10:59 - 11:06
So what I try to do, and I see many people I meet in social doing it, is I try to understand

11:07 - 11:16
how this person feels in their normal life in order that when we are developing or when we are

11:16 - 11:20
working together, it's not a stone on the way.

11:20 - 11:23
So it's, you know, it's not a problem for this person to work.

11:23 - 11:31
So getting to know what is happening to everyone, keeping it for yourself, and trying to channel

11:32 - 11:39
different solutions for members of your team is is really is really tough mentally.

11:39 - 11:42
I I I experienced that.

11:42 - 11:48
You can mitigate that, but I think no one is really talking about that.

11:53 - 11:57
And I I have a feeling that you are really close to the business. Right?

11:57 - 12:07
When we talk about the, about the, BESO, You talk about, like, the goal of having the contracts with the clients. Right? Yes.

12:07 - 12:11
You are a tech leader, but you are thinking, like, about the business and you want to affect

12:11 - 12:15
the business because this is the main thing, which I think it's, it's it's great.

12:15 - 12:23
But especially in those small startups or, like, a small companies, I have a feeling and what

12:23 - 12:30
I saw before that non tech people, like business people, are really not getting along with the

12:30 - 12:32
tech people or tech leaders. Right?

12:32 - 12:37
They kind of it's really hard to find the common knowledge to understand each other problems

12:37 - 12:42
or visions and why something takes so much time and how to approach it.

12:43 - 12:50
Like, why do you think it's so and how to how to solve it on or how do you solve it in your case?

12:51 - 12:57
I think it's hard because there needs to be a will to understand, first of all.

12:58 - 13:05
Once there is a will to understand and one there is a once there is understanding from your

13:05 - 13:08
own, what are your capabilities?

13:09 - 13:15
So I work with lawyers, and I really don't know law, right, in any in any way.

13:15 - 13:18
You may I may think I know. I know. I don't.

13:19 - 13:29
So if the lawyer is telling to me what has to happen, I 100% trust each person, And then you

13:29 - 13:30
introduce the element of trust.

13:31 - 13:38
So how I try to solve it is once I communicate with the team or with with one of the teams and

13:38 - 13:46
they explain to me what's going on, technically speaking, to a level that I understand it. What's the problem?

13:46 - 13:50
Why we cannot solve it earlier? What's going on?

13:50 - 13:57
I tried to under to to explain that to to the truck owner, to the CEO, and I'm sorry to the

13:57 - 13:58
to the rest of the management.

13:59 - 14:05
What does the what Which is a problem that we are experiencing in simple or more simple words?

14:06 - 14:13
And if they want to understand more technically speaking, we hold a separate meeting where we so and tell.

14:13 - 14:14
So, look, this is happening here.

14:14 - 14:16
That is why it's happening.

14:17 - 14:25
So we I try to get the whys of what's going on very, very, very clear that they can trust it

14:25 - 14:31
into a 100%, And this why is usually is what you have to tell the client afterwards.

14:31 - 14:38
Because I haven't met a client that is going to just eat you alive because because you didn't,

14:39 - 14:46
arrive to the deadline that you had unless you you didn't tell this person, you know, why are

14:46 - 14:47
you why why it's happening.

14:47 - 14:49
But usually it's very comprehensive.

14:49 - 14:52
The people are very comprehensive when they know why. Right?

14:52 - 14:56
Because tech is, not something linear.

14:57 - 15:03
It's just one day something works very well, the next day something goes wrong and and and you

15:03 - 15:05
don't know how long it's going to take you to solve it.

15:05 - 15:08
Once people understand why, it's

15:08 - 15:15
it's really okay. But, I have such a feeling, like, this is really perfectly agree with that,

15:15 - 15:23
but I, I I feel that this, like, simple explanation and understanding the the business perspective

15:23 - 15:28
because I'm engineer, like, I'm engineer, but, I work more in a business area. Yeah.

15:28 - 15:34
And what I notice especially, for instance, with the tech leaders, when they are starting, they

15:34 - 15:40
are lacking this soft skills, kind of like define the common language of the business. Right?

15:40 - 15:40
Yes.

15:40 - 15:43
And it takes some time to kind of develop it.

15:43 - 15:49
Yes. I think you need so I first of all, you need to have a in my opinion, you need to have

15:49 - 15:56
a lot of interest on that because once you understand that the clients that you have, users

15:57 - 16:04
or, business to business clients, is the people that you are working for. Right?

16:04 - 16:07
That's without them, you don't have anything.

16:08 - 16:15
So once you get to that mentality that, you know, the rest of the companies or the product owner

16:15 - 16:23
or the chief product officer or the CEO, what they are trying to do is to sell what you are

16:23 - 16:25
what you are trying to build.

16:26 - 16:32
So you need to understand because, it's true that I made a lot of, especially when I started,

16:32 - 16:40
a lot of, developers, a lot of tech people, which they are annoyed by the changes that are happening.

16:41 - 16:44
And don't get me don't get me wrong. I understand it.

16:44 - 16:47
But you need to develop the skill.

16:47 - 16:53
You need to develop the mentality that you are not living in an island and the way you are doing

16:53 - 16:56
is actually going to be used by someone, which is amazing.

16:57 - 17:04
So you need to try to channel that knowledge that you have, the client has a pain or is going

17:04 - 17:11
to have it, to your developers or to the tech team and to say, look, I know that that's not

17:11 - 17:16
what we talked 2 months ago or not what we talked 1 month ago, but the market has changed.

17:17 - 17:22
The client has changed, and there is nothing that that you can do.

17:23 - 17:29
You could you can, you know, complain and and and do something wrong and and do it fast and

17:29 - 17:38
dirty, But that is going to harm you because if we don't have money, it should kind of work,

17:39 - 17:43
and it's going to basically harm all your colleagues.

17:44 - 17:52
So because everyone will be affected by your decision of doing something faster and and break the the company.

17:53 - 18:00
So this is this is the mentality that you need to to and and to develop and also be super calm.

18:01 - 18:03
You need to be very calm.

18:03 - 18:09
You need to understand that everyone is going to have a problem and that IT is going to have to solve it.

18:09 - 18:16
So you need to, yeah, live with that. Be calm.

18:18 - 18:24
I think this, like, a really good, 2 tips, be calm and, like, the client is your end kind of user. Right?

18:24 - 18:29
You're building the stuff for the client, not for the CEO or for the sales guy, right? Yes. Yes.

18:29 - 18:35
But for the client, so to have it in light. Yes. Exactly. Okay.

18:35 - 18:38
And you work in a pretty distributed environment. Right?

18:38 - 18:45
Because you before worked with some with some outsourcing companies outside like the really distributed teams.

18:45 - 18:51
Do you have some lessons learned how to make it work, like some tips to other? How what works

18:51 - 18:59
for you? Yeah. So I work with people, in different countries remote for a very long time.

19:00 - 19:02
So for me for me, it's not new.

19:03 - 19:10
What is happening now is I live like this since forever, and in different time zones as well.

19:11 - 19:19
5 hours before, 5 hours ahead, 8, And there is something in my opinion, there is something super important.

19:19 - 19:29
And it's like, you need to have the right communication tools, and you need to encourage, communication at all levels.

19:29 - 19:37
What I mean is that sometimes I think people lose perspective when they get in the title, the

19:37 - 19:42
or the management, and somehow they just

19:45 - 19:51
close themselves to a direct communication with a junior developer working in in Manila. Right?

19:51 - 19:53
And that is absolutely wrong.

19:55 - 20:00
You need to tell everyone that you are reachable 247 for them.

20:00 - 20:05
So they are in different time zones, and you need to know where the time zones are for them,

20:05 - 20:06
and you need to be reachable.

20:06 - 20:11
So your job is, as in my opinion, as a CDO of a distributed team is 247.

20:12 - 20:16
It's unfortunate, but it's like that.

20:17 - 20:24
And the second thing is that you need to give to the people in the absolute trust that they

20:24 - 20:28
can work anywhere, anytime they want.

20:30 - 20:35
And you are not going to go behind them to ask them, what did you do yesterday at 3 PM?

20:35 - 20:38
Because I have seen that, and that's wrong.

20:38 - 20:48
So once the people have the freedom to choose their their their work, their working hours, even the meetings. Right?

20:48 - 20:56
Even, for example, having, I mean, stand up, the people call it a stand up so that there are

20:56 - 20:59
meetings to check out between between team members and locations.

21:00 - 21:05
If someone writes to you, how does to me, look, I'm stuck in traffic.

21:05 - 21:08
I may not be able to join the meeting. That's okay.

21:08 - 21:09
Really, there is no need.

21:09 - 21:13
There is absolutely no need to be everyone together all the time talking.

21:14 - 21:17
We will we will talk asynchronously synchronously later.

21:18 - 21:26
So if you try if you are able to solve communication, you have 90 per 90 percent of the job done.

21:26 - 21:30
Because then the rest is to be able to give clear

21:33 - 21:41
definitions of the features and tasks that the people needs to do and as and as well give them

21:41 - 21:48
the power to be back to you with what you told me doesn't make any sense.

21:48 - 21:50
I do not understand it.

21:50 - 21:54
And there is nothing like the development day is lost.

21:54 - 21:58
And I know that because I've been a junior developer myself for many years.

21:59 - 22:01
So sometimes you develop a lot in 8 hours.

22:01 - 22:05
Sometimes you develop nothing because it's not a day to day.

22:05 - 22:06
It's it's really like a long way.

22:06 - 22:11
So you you need to create that kind of trust. Like, I trust you.

22:12 - 22:17
I know that you are doing your best, and I trust your decisions.

22:17 - 22:21
Take them because I am sleeping. Yes. Right?

22:22 - 22:26
So this is this is the this is the it works very well for me, to be honest.

22:26 - 22:32
I I I have met wonderful people everywhere, Everywhere, absolutely.

22:33 - 22:40
And the the the result of this is that when I have, I start a new venture, I can call them back

22:40 - 22:45
and and say, like, look, do you want to work with me, or do you want to do this together?

22:46 - 22:49
And people know that this way of working is absolutely amazing.

22:49 - 22:53
It's compatible with their lives, so they say yes.

22:54 - 22:58
But you mentioned the interesting thing about people are really open to communicate. Right?

22:58 - 23:03
They they are open to communicate with you, to talk with you, and you need to encourage people.

23:03 - 23:09
But to be honest, like, I run, I run this organization, like, that I have a company based in Poland.

23:09 - 23:12
We have 100 people, and I do it for almost 9 years.

23:13 - 23:16
And I have a feeling that I'm really open person, really down to earth.

23:17 - 23:22
If I go for integration party, nobody will know that the one I'm one of the cofounders because

23:22 - 23:23
I'm really down to earth.

23:23 - 23:30
But, I still have a problem that when I onboard people and I encourage them, I I have, like,

23:30 - 23:35
a quick talk about the company and I encourage them, hey, this is my calendar.

23:35 - 23:37
Just pick whatever time slot you want.

23:37 - 23:39
You can always, like, reach out to me.

23:39 - 23:40
I'm not, like, a proactive.

23:40 - 23:45
I'm really bad at it, but you can always, like, put a calendar meeting in my calendar.

23:45 - 23:47
And I even, like, share some tips.

23:47 - 23:53
Like, I try to give the insights, like, to give the context why we are doing something on on a chat.

23:53 - 23:56
I I prefer a sync way of communication, right?

23:56 - 24:03
And then still I have a feeling that they are really it's really hard for them to reach out

24:03 - 24:07
of to me because of the position that is on the paper. Right?

24:07 - 24:07
Yes. Yes.

24:07 - 24:11
So I'm just wondering how how in your case, how do you approach it? You know?

24:11 - 24:22
Yes. So to the other, members of the company which are not in tech, I tell them to book my calendar like you do.

24:24 - 24:25
I'm sure they will listen to this.

24:25 - 24:29
I would say, well, why are you doing that? Yes.

24:29 - 24:30
So to them, I do that.

24:30 - 24:39
But to the to the members of of of tech, of IT, I have never send say this to anyone yet.

24:39 - 24:41
So I gave them my phone number.

24:42 - 24:48
I gave them a Slack, my mail, and I don't ask them to work.

24:48 - 24:53
I say, just write to me at any time you want. It doesn't matter.

24:53 - 24:58
You can write to me at 6 in the morning. I have Slack sometimes.

24:58 - 25:03
You can write to me, you can send me a text message, or you can call me. Mhmm.

25:03 - 25:10
Even if I'm on holidays, even if I'm driving Mhmm. Whatever, reach out.

25:10 - 25:14
I'm I'm I'm going to be back to you, and I'm going to talk to you.

25:14 - 25:16
You don't need to book a calendar for me.

25:18 - 25:26
And what I do is, at the beginning, I reach out a lot to the people myself. So are you okay? How is it going?

25:26 - 25:27
How did you do that?

25:29 - 25:33
You know, some people are way more open, and this comes with the personalities.

25:34 - 25:40
Some people are more, introverts, and and they prefer to, you know, different kind of communications.

25:42 - 25:48
But in general lines, this has worked for me very, very well.

25:48 - 25:56
So today, I woke up and I had 2 messages that someone sent me at, 6:0:5 in the morning, and

25:56 - 26:01
I reply at 8, and and it's probably right to me later.

26:02 - 26:09
There is a lot of asynchronous communication happening and a lot and then sometimes very synchronous. Mhmm.

26:09 - 26:14
But I don't ask anyone to book a calendar for me in the tech team. Never.

26:15 - 26:20
Interesting. But I think this proactive approach that you mentioned, like, at the very beginning, you asked the question.

26:20 - 26:22
So you are really proactive on your own. Right? Yes. Yes.

26:22 - 26:26
And this encourage maybe the people to get back to you. Right?

26:26 - 26:40
Yes. Because, you know, I come from, being the last person in the texting many years, like the intern and stuff. Right?

26:40 - 26:46
And I went, step by step and I saw what I didn't want. Right?

26:46 - 26:58
So I and then I met, great CTOs, to be honest, that they saw me a little bit of the light of, alright. That's possible.

26:59 - 27:06
So I want if I will join a company as a intern that I just finished my studies or I'm finishing

27:06 - 27:14
my studies, I would like that the person that, is the supposed to be the head and leader of

27:14 - 27:18
the city of the of the tech is gonna come to me and tell me, look,

27:21 - 27:24
I trust you. Take your own decisions.

27:25 - 27:28
Reach out for help to me or any one of the team members.

27:29 - 27:36
And it doesn't cost you anything to say, like, few words a day or to to reach out to someone. It's it's just okay.

27:36 - 27:41
Say saying good morning in the, you know, to your neighbors doesn't cost you anything. Right?

27:41 - 27:44
So and it it makes a lot of difference.

27:44 - 27:46
So that's that's that's what I try.

27:50 - 27:53
I always like to ask hard questions.

27:53 - 28:00
So so I'm wondering, in case of your career, what was the hardest thing that you have ever done,

28:00 - 28:02
in in tech as a tech leader?

28:04 - 28:08
Maybe the hardest challenge tech not the technical challenge but maybe with people.

28:08 - 28:11
If you could tell about it and what you have learned from it.

28:12 - 28:22
Well, perhaps one of the hardest things, was a company I joined, and before joining the company,

28:22 - 28:26
I hire a a backend developer.

28:26 - 28:27
I was joining as a CTO.

28:27 - 28:33
I hire a backend developer, And, actually, this person joined before me.

28:33 - 28:38
So let's say I I started on the 1st September, and this person joined on 1st August.

28:39 - 28:44
But there was a team in place in that company, already.

28:44 - 28:53
But when I arrived, the the back end developer told me that everyone was being very harsh with

28:53 - 29:02
him, and there was a team lead that he was being very, very, very hard to work with, didn't

29:02 - 29:06
really communicate with him, and so forth and so on.

29:06 - 29:15
So when I arrived, I check out the team and I found very, very hard to to manage people.

29:16 - 29:25
So the company had, like, millions of users, daily, And we I had to take the decision.

29:25 - 29:29
The CEO asked me, like, do do what you think you have to do.

29:31 - 29:36
So I had to take the decision to let go everyone at some point.

29:36 - 29:39
So I felt some and then the rest of the team.

29:40 - 29:42
And basically, we were alone.

29:43 - 29:52
This back end developer and me with a system that was really huge, and they had to run some

29:52 - 29:54
millions of users, and I had nothing.

29:55 - 30:01
And, I think the first day, second day at night,

30:04 - 30:05
the back end went down.

30:05 - 30:08
So it's just an error, it's gone.

30:10 - 30:11
And we had to solve it.

30:11 - 30:14
And we had to build a team from the ground floor.

30:14 - 30:20
We solved it, thanks to the backend developer, and we had to build the team from the ground

30:20 - 30:26
floor, but at the same time we needed to manage the whole thing running and that took like around 6 months.

30:27 - 30:36
It was very, very, very, very hard, very tough because any moment the system could go down was unstable.

30:37 - 30:41
Backups were not ready because the previous team didn't do a backup for, like, 10 years.

30:41 - 30:43
So it was, like, really, really hard.

30:45 - 30:53
And what I learned from that is that when you are pushed to the wall, you are more capable than

30:53 - 30:55
you think so on doing many things.

30:55 - 30:59
And and, I lost fear to anything.

30:59 - 31:04
It's like, just don't fear anything anymore because that was stream.

31:04 - 31:13
And then we were hiring people little by little, that they were as resilient as we that that was the key point.

31:13 - 31:15
It wasn't like how much, you know.

31:15 - 31:26
It was like, hey, can you really face all these problems that we had. And they were. And, yeah.

31:26 - 31:31
So that's that's that's basically one of the hardest things that I did this.

31:34 - 31:37
Amazing story. I I think I experienced something similar.

31:37 - 31:41
I lost the fear and after that, the things become so easy.

31:42 - 31:47
Like, it was I I had similar situation, but the it's, I can relate to that. So

31:48 - 31:52
Yes. Because there is a moment that you realize that,

31:55 - 31:58
everything is solvable. You know?

31:58 - 32:05
Even the hardest thing, you can really get around that, and you can really go and and and solve it.

32:05 - 32:10
And, yeah, it's it's something that you learn.

32:10 - 32:12
You have to experience like you did.

32:12 - 32:19
You see, can no one tell you, like, till you don't leave it and your palms are sweating because nothing works.

32:20 - 32:24
That's that's the when you when you pass this this moment, the rest is okay.

32:26 - 32:32
And the last question that, I wanted to ask you, are there any books, resources, conferences,

32:33 - 32:39
I don't know, podcasts, whatever, was really beneficial for you in your career as a tech leader

32:39 - 32:46
that you had those moment after, you know, reading those or, you know, learning from those?

32:48 - 32:57
Yes. So here, I would say that in terms of books, I love literature.

32:58 - 33:01
Like like, it's a hobby.

33:04 - 33:15
And I would say to the people, you need to to read philosophy, and I would say read Seneca if you can. Mhmm.

33:16 - 33:23
Because Seneca is telling the stories of, just giving advice to people that are having very

33:23 - 33:25
hard times, how to deal with them.

33:26 - 33:30
One thing is to read, one thing is to live it, of course, but it helps.

33:31 - 33:41
And there is a book, by Ayn Rand, the fountainhead, which, tells the story, and I recommend

33:41 - 33:43
it to everyone to read.

33:43 - 33:50
It's an architect, which has completely different ideas of what is going on right now in New York.

33:50 - 34:01
And it fights through all the established thinking and he goes with his ideas, hiring people

34:01 - 34:11
to work with him based on pure talent and and and personalities and is the value of a person

34:13 - 34:16
more than you have a lot of value. You can bring it.

34:16 - 34:19
Just go with it because it's there.

34:20 - 34:28
And in terms of podcast, I I I listen a lot of, health, related podcasts, and I I will say Peter

34:28 - 34:38
Adia is, a doctor in the US that tops all things health, and I love running.

34:41 - 34:46
So doing hard things, I think running is can become very hard sometimes.

34:46 - 34:55
And listening to the health, help me to perform much better because, you know, you are aware

34:55 - 35:01
of your health and you are very, comfortable with yourself.

35:03 - 35:08
And then basically, you you you really can perform, way better.

35:08 - 35:13
So educate yourself about health as much as you can.

35:13 - 35:17
Of course, we are not doctors, but, it helps a lot, I think.

35:18 - 35:22
Awesome. Thank you. Thank you very much for all the tips and recommendation.

35:23 - 35:25
It was a pleasure to talk to you today, Jose.

35:25 - 35:27
Thank you very much for having me here.

35:27 - 35:32
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