The Tech Leadership Odyssey : From Learning to Leading

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My name is Matt, and I will be talking with Juan Garberi about understanding business needs and customizing leadership approach.

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Juan, in for the past 7 years, you worked here or 8 years already. Right?

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You are in Germany 8 years. Right? Yes.

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Let's say 7 years almost.

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Yeah. 7 years or something.

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So you work as an engineer in another head of engineering, leading various teams here. Mhmm.

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Pretty international as far as I, yep, know.

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And I'm just always wondering, like, how was your switch from the software developer?

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Because you are in a tech business for quite a while Yes. Like a managerial role.

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So it was basically by accident.

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I'll involve a lot of killing the ego.

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But that is a separate topic.

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But basically, I was working I started a company.

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And then in this company, one of the strongest engineers that later became my mentor, poached

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me to go to a start up.

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And he told me, Look, I need a senior wagon engineer working with us.

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I I made the jump to senior after the interviews and everything.

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And this guy is really talented, but he was mainly a co web programmer.

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He built an amazing team, but he was not taking care of the team in a good way.

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I mean, because he was doing something else.

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It's a really big challenge.

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So basically I tried to support him on these little things about the structure and the deliveries.

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We didn't have, like, a formal process working with Prog.

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We were working with one of the engineers and a mathematician.

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We needed to structure the business rules on how everything should work.

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And then organically fell on that role while he was doing the other part while I was doing coding.

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And eventually, one day, he decided to part ways with the companies and said, like, I want to do something else.

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And this is great because Mariano is his name.

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He went, talked to the owner of the startup, talked with who will be my boss, with everyone, and said, no.

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Juan is ready to take over the team. He's already doing it.

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And by the way, this is these are his I already talked to him.

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These are his conversation expectations.

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And then he came, tapped me on the shoulder.

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I was like, Sorry, dude. I'm leaving.

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I already get my notice in Argentina between 2 weeks and a month, and you got this.

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And he packed the bag for Friday and then get back for a couple of holidays, and then he went on vacation and bye.

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So, yeah, I took over the team, And that was a really nice experience.

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And then I applied for another company called Globant.

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Basically, I need a tech lead.

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And the role of the engineering manager as is or as is seen here in Europe was not fully defined there.

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So I realized, okay, this engineer maybe requires some guidance on the career development or

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maybe it requires some tooling on how to develop themselves or how to distribute the workload.

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We're working with project management or with project owners.

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So I kind of fell under the role and kept maturing and maturing and evolving.

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So it was basically organic.

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I realized that I could contribute more by unblocking others than with my code alone.

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I love coding, but I realise I can only code for 1 person.

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But if I do my job right, I can grab a team of 10 people and really make a difference.

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So, yeah, impact wise, it was a no brainer.

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What what you said, it makes a lot of sense.

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But I'm just wondering from your perspective, was something surprising for you?

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Like, I mean, like because as a software developer, you see only the side of, developing the software.

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You don't see the high level so much or, like, the video and so on.

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So I'm just wondering what was it

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for you. So I have this idea that, you shall sit for 50 minutes with all the stakeholders. They say, okay. You do this. I do this. I do this. You do this.

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And then everybody goes their own way and everything is done.

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And I discovered the human factor behind the projects and that not everybody delivers the same.

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So I needed to understand what were the complexities of every person and how they want to deliver

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or what they can deliver or how they want to grow.

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I've seen really talented engineers that kind of work with other people because the setting is not right.

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So, like, the main challenge was understanding that it was not a problem that I just needed

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to factorise the perfect, but also to understand that there were at least 7 more layers behind.

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And those layers were evolving constantly.

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So it's kinda like in a battlefield.

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Let's say, you like, if you're playing a team sport and then you see, like, an an opening, and

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then you play there and then you fall back, and then you move forward, and then you fall back,

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and then you see another clear, and then you move forward. So that was that.

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Like, it was, like, the second realisation.

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As a developer, I always thought the medical amount, everybody knows this book.

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And how come, like, project manager, engineer, leaders, like, doesn't know this? It's not that easy. Everybody understands this conceptually.

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But whenever you need to start working with the people, that's a complete completely separate beast.

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Like, it's a different animal, and how you handle the process is completely different.

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So that was the the reality check.

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And how about the the vault?

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Because you're working on vault for quite a while.

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And I'm just wondering the the really specific thing because my experience with with clients

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and people from Finland working, they are really close. They are super introverts.

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Like, if I compare I work with guys from Norway, from Denmark, from Iceland, from Sweden, but,

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like, to work with the guys from Finland, it's so difficult even, like, you know, to get into this,

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you know. There are different there are different skill sets.

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I don't like to think about the word competencies. It's a different toolbox.

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It's funny because I ask you where you're from and you tell me you're Polish.

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I work with my first contact with Polish engineers, for example.

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It was the same greeting that you are telling me about the the Finnish culture.

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And after 2 weeks, it's just like I'm from Buenos Aires.

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It's like, these are Portunos that speak Polish.

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In culture, we have so much in common.

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So it's more about finding the elements that you have in common.

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Having a professional setting and having a certain let's call it a behaviour contract, it really helps.

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Basically, it's about being flexible and being understanding that people have different competencies.

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I can give you an example on this.

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For example, a bit on the spectrum. I'm still getting diagnosed.

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And I was working with an engineer who was, I respectfully, nameless, great guy.

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He was not diagnosed, but he was having struggles because our director was really pushing him

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to speak in conferences but with a really good positive attitude.

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It's like, hey dude, you can get you promoted but it's really pre pandemic to go to this conference

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and do this and do that.

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There was a cultural barrier as well from his country of origin and he felt like really challenged on that.

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And he's like he doesn't need to do this, it's not like a checkbox.

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Why don't we put this person to work on a project that they feel comfortable?

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I don't have to be talking with people every 24 hours with a status update. I'm breaking down.

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It's like, you know what? You do this. Callaway programmer style.

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Get back to us every 2 days with a written report. Yes. This is this. This is it.

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Kim didn't get up to date, man. That's it.

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So, I'm funny because of all the people that I work with, especially from other countries, the

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Finnish were the most warm of all That's really open. Really? Yes.

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But it was quite interesting. Our city was Finnish. Amazing guy.

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One of all data analysts and scientists.

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Well, 2 of us. 1 data analyst, one of the scientists, Tori and Jakov, finished.

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And it's 5 minutes in.

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Okay, let's have a beer and talk.

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The project called life and everything.

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They have been really warm with me.

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But people tend to open up with me.

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And I think that is kind of like a really nice tool that I have, being an engineer leader or a manager.

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I think it's a great skill, right, especially in such, different environment with different nationalities.

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Being an introvert and having the skill, it's it was hard growing up.

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But then I realized that, yeah, okay, people talk to me. Let's embrace this.

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So it's about investing with the cultural differences, not in their limitations, but also investing

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a lot in the strong points.

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We are not the same and it's fantastic.

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So I wanted to discuss the last 2 years and, like, the this year because, like, 2 years ago,

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the the the market was hyped.

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Like, a big techs was hyped.

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The the hiring, it was crazy.

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It was really hard to find anybody to call to build a digital product.

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Then another year, I mean, 2023, we entered the recession, which heated, like, really hard.

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I mean, so many layoffs.

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And I'm just wondering and and and trying to ask other leaders how do they see and how does

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the organisations, see the 2024? I'm

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I mean, I've been at work for close to a year.

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And before that, I worked for 2 other companies, World Photo and another one called Hecar.

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Heavily funded startups with a lot of growth, great companies, especially Fodo.

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But for me, it didn't make sense the aggressiveness that they have been growing.

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And it's I could understand, there are investors and they need to show results so you get more

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hands on to work on things, hire smart people and move things forward.

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Yeah, it was quite a blow to see, or my last comment, to see all the layoffs, they have to reduce the scale.

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Sadly, it happened out of their control.

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But I think, sadly, it was to be expected.

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For me, it didn't make sense the way many I'm not talking about these 2 companies, but overall

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how aggressive they were hiring.

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The compensation wise and everything, I know I'm going to be like, oh, don't say that.

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But being a Latin American in Berlin and talking with other with people who has, I don't know,

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a PhD and 2 masters, and and then comparing overall salaries and saying, like, okay, I'm really happy.

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It took a lot of work to be here, but there is a lot of disparity.

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I I kind of sense that maybe coming from Latin America and expecting the worst, it was kinda

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expecting for this to happen.

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It it was no surprise because something growing up, everybody in my family started their own companies.

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And so I grew up on this start up mentality.

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Well, they didn't call it startup.

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They just called it companies.

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And it was always about the revenue, and it's about about the point of we call it the point

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of equilibrium or tipping point.

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When you say, like, okay, I'm spending this much, I'm earning this much.

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How long can I hold it?

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My last company, I was I was asking, it's like on this work model, like how do we make profit?

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And this is how I also try to run the teams.

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And ever since I became a lead, Like, how are we becoming profitable without going into intricacies of budget?

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But how are we delivering value? Yeah.

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I don't know if this answers my question.

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The way I see it is it was bound to explode.

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It's the same that happened with real estate.

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It's like loans, loans, loans.

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The companies sorry, the property devalue it there, Anthony.

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Yeah. It makes a lot of sense.

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I fully agree that the market is a bit cleaned off, I would say. And we are getting

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to, like, a healthy approach, right, to hiring.

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In Argentina, it happened the same.

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When we had the economical crash, the second to last, I believe now.

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But in 2,001, I remember, like, the whole economy was in recession.

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This was before the Greek recession. 2 years yeah. 2,001.

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And I remember, like, talking with relatives that have companies and everything.

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They said, like, if you get a loan right now, it's impossible.

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Like it's you got it from like some weird or high rate, it's not good.

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But the money that is on the street, there is money that is well backed up.

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If someone sends a cheque, it's there.

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Someone make a card payment is that because nobody gives credit.

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And I think that now the IT companies, are the same.

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Like the ones who remain strong, like this one, who, by the way, didn't have any lay offs. Mhmm.

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Which is quite a lot. They kept growing. Says a lot.

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Are the ones who are, like, they're really strong.

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They were, like, properly organized.

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And, also, they were lacking because they aim for a model that was sustainable. But, yeah.

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And how do you see this year?

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Are you optimistic or pessimistic?

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I I I see a lot of fates coming up and down. Now everybody's here now.

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Just I was reading about this new technology that I forgot the name that supposedly is going to fully replace engineers.

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Even with all this, I feel like the companies that are remaining are going to continue very

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strong, again, for the same reasons.

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If they survive this latest backlash, they can only grow. But, well, let's see.

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Because also, different elections in different countries right now, and the conflict here, the

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war in Europe, didn't help.

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But, yeah, I feel optimistic.

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If not, we are, like we, software engineers, we will always find, like, a small project and

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something to to move forward.

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Luckily, we are not as tight as other lines of profession that are more dependent on the whole

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ecosystem of the world, of their sorry, of their village, if you will, or the city.

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I can work from anywhere in the world.

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Like, my current limitation is my kid's school right now. That's it. So yeah.

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So one way or another, I think software developers are going to continue moving forward.

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I wanted to tackle the pain points and challenges, after, like, so many years being, like, a leader for engineering teams. Yes.

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I'm wondering, do you can you name, like, some not some widely popular nobody mentioning maybe,

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pain points that you maybe you had or you saw.

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Yes. When when we started, it was when I was 20, it was and this persisted.

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It was the guys from IT.

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Like, these guys with weird t shirts, and they look like the delivery guy, but they are building

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a whole ecosystem in the cloud.

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And we were seeing, like, these were people who are hard to talk to.

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And there is now a tendency, that but still going really slow.

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Where the companies are allowing engineers to have a better understanding of the products that they are building.

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And we are preventing a water falling.

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Basically, let's say business has an idea.

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Then they talk to the designer.

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The designer builds an interface.

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Product manager or owners evolve this.

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And then they get to the engineer.

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The engineer says, I don't know how to build this, or it's going to take 2 years.

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Now many companies are involved in engineering from the beginning and they do like that.

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We all sit on the same table.

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This is what we do here.

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And we try to understand what is the problem space.

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I mean, we can come up and say, look, yes, we can build this whole thing, but what you need

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right now, it's monitoring for these 3 events.

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Here, like, give me an hour. There you go.

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We just bought the project 3 months while we build this, and the the people can continue operate.

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So, but I still see many companies that they tend to ostracize engineers, because they see it

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like the better or bad news. I don't know.

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Like, I have civil engineer friends that work really close with architects and they have amazing

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buildings because they know how much they can push the structure because they have the simulation here right there.

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So what's the difference with with software developers? We understand the possibilities.

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So that is a challenge that is happening.

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Also about understanding the different competencies of communication, like I mentioned earlier.

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There are many companies that still see usually big companies that are not just IT.

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They just have an IT department.

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And they see the production of software like that, like a line of production, which I get it.

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It's not like we are, like, smoking a cigarette and thinking about how we can build something

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or just ringing coffee and coding at night.

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We need to be involved with the company and their needs and the KPIs and everything.

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But it's really hard to get the same output for every single person in the same way. You cannot predict this.

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So that is another challenge that I think us leaders need to be accommodated.

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We have to be the buffer.

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We need to bring engineering to the table, but also we need to make sure that the engineering

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team understand the needs and we find a solution together.

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Because it's no way that we are going to keep the cadence of work the same way across the year.

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Do you have any, like, specific processes or, like, a product that's helping you to build the

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products here at at the vault, like, if you compare to previous organizations?

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That is specific here. Here I really like the way that they allow us a lot of operational freedom.

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They say, look, we need this.

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This is not even, we need this.

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This is the problem space.

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We should provide we should be able to provide this functionality to our customers.

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What do you think? Okay, give me I don't know.

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Give me 2 days, I'll get back to you.

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Or give me some time.

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You come up with that idea.

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You build up the small team, and we work really close with pro leads.

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So here, the managers are colleagues because I think the the word manager is a bit tainted.

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And I this is what I like. What?

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And you come up with a plan.

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You analyse the feasibility, and then you say, okay. What do we need? Okay.

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Maybe we need, like, 2 people that were like this, 2 people that were like that, a designer, another analyst. Okay. Here's the team. Let's see the plan.

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Let's check-in a couple of weeks, and let's move forward. And it's really organic.

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And it's not that I'm shifting people left to right because usually it's not for small projects.

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It's for really long lasting features project that may require years, because but they have

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clear milestones on a high level.

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So the product area is really well organized. It's really well.

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I'm super happy to work on that, and they don't waste time.

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And so that, for me, was a welcoming base because it was something that we did with my former

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head of product when I was head of engineering at HEICAD.

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And we tried to get this process, and we got it going.

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And then and eventually, the company have a setback, a really big one.

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And then I came here and well, I mean, I I was looking forward to this company, and I see it.

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It's already going, and they have a lot of experience, and they have so many iterations on top of it. So that is welcoming.

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Again, it's bringing everybody to the table and don't waste time.

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So is it like, because I read on your on your website blog that you have, like, a product lead.

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You have different roles in the team, and you focus on building, like, specific, like, a feature.

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So, like, small teams responsible for the feature.

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Mhmm. Iterate fast. Iterate fast.

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We have plenty of freedom on the tech stack.

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So we have a decorator. We share a lot.

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But we don't have a top down mandate that it should be built this way. We have engineering principles.

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Obviously, these are like predicated.

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So on the engineering alone side, we have a lot a lot of freedom.

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And then it's basically how the product leads is.

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Like, it might take, and this is the world takes as well, is product set the direction.

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We are the engine that makes the team go move forward.

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Like, the engineers make the code go that way.

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But, it's product who decides.

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Look, we need to get this, and we need x, y, zed, and these are our this is our definition of success.

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Guys, what can we do about this?

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Team, let's work on this together.

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That is really important because it gives the engineer purpose as well.

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They sit on the table.

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And I keep sorry I keep repeating this, but for anybody who gets the reason for this, it's really

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important, especially the new leaders that are in the role.

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They need to understand that you need to work with the pro players and this is the way the world does.

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This is the way that Forto did and Solar Heikar and many other really successful companies. They come as well.

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You mentioned you are, that the company is really open and not closing the way what technology

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to use or language to use. Right?

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But, my experience was, for instance, with the JavaScript developers.

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They are they are really hype driven.

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There are so many things going on on the market, new libraries, new new tech.

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Like, I mean, like, the trick there's something newer each day.

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So, how do you cope with that? Right?

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Well, it's it's tricky because on one side, you really want to build something that lasts.

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So you want to put the best technology there.

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But I think it's all boils down to being practical and removing the ego.

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I something that I ask on interviews is like, how do you understand the difference between a

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say like, let's say, a mid level engineer and a senior engineer?

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And you can always have, like, a senior senior engineer.

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Like, he's this person is about he or she or them is about, to to jump to stuff.

21:55 - 21:59
And they understand that technologies are such tools.

22:00 - 22:04
If you remove the ego from that and you say, like, this tool is doing this, and I can understand

22:04 - 22:08
the issuing principle on this, then they shall move forward with that.

22:08 - 22:15
If you keep updating to the bleeding edge on absolutely everything, You also are on the bleeding

22:15 - 22:21
edge of the updates from the 3rd party tools that you may use or the open source community and

22:21 - 22:23
some technologies come and run fast.

22:23 - 22:26
I remember a couple of years ago, we all needed to.

22:26 - 22:29
We were either you were team Kotlin or team Go.

22:30 - 22:32
And it was a lot of there was a lot of polarization.

22:32 - 22:35
And many companies said no, we need to keep a hard line working on this.

22:37 - 22:39
Technologies are a one way door.

22:39 - 22:41
Like, libraries and small features are 2 way doors.

22:41 - 22:45
Maybe you try it and you see it doesn't work and then you can pull back.

22:45 - 22:47
But why are you adding that tool? What is the sense?

22:47 - 22:52
And that's what the engineer lead, and especially staff engineers, to say, like, are we adding

22:52 - 22:54
it because it look cool or because it's saving us time?

22:54 - 23:00
There are some prototype libraries on Android that, that are experimental, that make some transition

23:00 - 23:06
that are fantastic, But you still need to support things devices that are, I don't know, 5 years

23:06 - 23:12
old for for a person, for a consumer that is a client that wants to order food. Well, okay.

23:12 - 23:14
Maybe don't do the, like, the flashy thing.

23:14 - 23:16
Make sure that it works first.

23:16 - 23:18
So I don't know if this answers the question.

23:18 - 23:20
Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Like, you need to be pragmatic.

23:21 - 23:23
I think an ego in the pocket.

23:23 - 23:28
Yes. Exactly. So why why because the reason is why do you want to add this fancy thing? No. Because it look cool. Yeah.

23:28 - 23:30
Because it's going to look cool in your portfolio.

23:31 - 23:33
But are you really adding value to a customer?

23:33 - 23:35
Are you making your life easier in 6 months?

23:36 - 23:40
Well, you also give some freedom.

23:40 - 23:44
I got the, you know, tell me, Juan, I want to do this this way. Like, why?

23:44 - 23:47
Now trust me, it's going to be good and I think it's going to add value.

23:47 - 23:52
And some things we might evaluate a bit too much.

23:52 - 23:57
But it's also a balance about giving the scenario the possibility to really explore something

23:57 - 24:02
that you know is going to pay back, like, to to have a, sorry, a return of investment, not payback.

24:03 - 24:06
Let's talk different engineering cultures because now you work at the vault.

24:06 - 24:11
Before, you worked at Amazon, at OLX Yes. And at many companies.

24:11 - 24:14
But I think those 3 are really well known.

24:14 - 24:20
And I mean, like, engineering culture between those, those companies, how do you see it?

24:20 - 24:22
Like, what are maybe the main differences?

24:23 - 24:28
So basically, when I moved to Germany, I got the regulator to Amazon.

24:28 - 24:35
It was not the most positive experience because I really connected with the product customer oriented culture.

24:35 - 24:41
But the way the engineering teams were pushed was typical American company that, I mean, you

24:41 - 24:43
stay there and you grow a lot really fast.

24:43 - 24:45
But I didn't connect with that culture.

24:46 - 24:53
I prefer for me, we are not when I'm working with engineers, we are not in the business of delivering software.

24:53 - 24:56
I'm in the business of building cohesive teams.

24:57 - 25:05
And that for me is critical because if you have a way that you can build a team that works in

25:05 - 25:14
the people's based on the people's strengths, and you put their members out of the comfort zone in a normal way.

25:15 - 25:19
And not because they are being overworked, but they are being developed.

25:19 - 25:25
And I'm like learning new things, I'm trying new technologies, and seeing things, you know, from a different perspective.

25:25 - 25:31
If you are able to do that, you can grow a more lasting engineering culture that can deliver value consistently.

25:32 - 25:37
Many companies that are really aggressive with their products, they have more aggressive or

25:37 - 25:40
demanding demand let's call them demanding engineering culture.

25:42 - 25:45
But they rely heavily on new people coming in.

25:46 - 25:53
I so the average tenure that you have in Europe for IT, I think it's a year and a half.

25:53 - 25:55
And then people leave on average.

25:55 - 25:59
Here is 3 years and a half or 3 years 3 months, something like that.

25:59 - 26:03
So more than let's say at least double, which is a no.

26:05 - 26:15
So my take from other companies for example, I also work for when I was for Ad Globant, I worked for Disney and ESPN. Great people, great products.

26:16 - 26:22
I mean, I did parks, I did cruise lines, I did ESPN, all the internal applications, the fantasy games and everything.

26:23 - 26:26
But they were more focused on deliver a specific feature.

26:26 - 26:31
Here on this, let's call it more European centric companies, they're all focused about building

26:31 - 26:34
a culture and a company and I connect more with that.

26:35 - 26:41
Because let's say tomorrow, wall panels, I don't know, SpaceX.

26:41 - 26:47
Any company, SpaceX, comes and buys the company, because they want to make deliveries to them.

26:47 - 26:53
And maybe we end up building guidance systems for the for the rockets to Mars. Okay.

26:53 - 26:57
They they are going to bring us to specialists in aviation, but we will need to build software.

26:58 - 27:02
I know for a fact that the engineers that I have on my team that I'm lucky to work with, they

27:02 - 27:07
could be moved to a project like that, and the guys will be successful Because we try to teach

27:07 - 27:12
them a mentality of how to work, to learn, to step out of their comfort zone, to apply the knowledge

27:12 - 27:15
that they that they got from college and also on the day to day work.

27:16 - 27:20
So if you do have that and you can make like a radical change from the product that you are

27:20 - 27:24
building or a small change, and it's always going to work.

27:25 - 27:29
And this for me is more valuable for the company because if they need to change direction or

27:29 - 27:33
they need you to support another place and another place of the company, you can.

27:34 - 27:39
You're not just, like, shipping, shipping, shipping, shipping, and then, like, someone opens your code.

27:40 - 27:42
I want to ask another question around it.

27:42 - 27:46
So because when I look at the Amazon, it's, like, super customer centric. Right?

27:46 - 27:52
If you are telling me about the vault and I talk with, product leader from Tier Mobility here

27:52 - 27:57
from Berlin, you are talking about, like, it needs to bring the profit for the company.

27:57 - 27:58
It needs to be profitable.

27:58 - 28:02
We're doing this because, like, we want to make money on that.

28:02 - 28:05
It's not like we're doing it because we want to do it. Right?

28:05 - 28:12
So I'm trying to understand, like, for instance, what could Amazon learn from, like, Volt and the European Organization?

28:16 - 28:20
You have to sort on the whiteboard, like, super fast the best way to transform a veterinary

28:20 - 28:24
tree that is unbalanced in with a certain level of complexity.

28:24 - 28:30
And and many companies have this interview process and they put the engineers to work on something

28:30 - 28:33
that is not meaningful or is not engaging.

28:34 - 28:40
So something that I think that many companies, regardless the company, need to understand is

28:40 - 28:44
you invest a lot of hiring, you invest a lot of compensation as well.

28:45 - 28:47
Put the people on the critical path.

28:47 - 28:49
Put the people to work and to bring their value.

28:50 - 28:51
So this is something that we all need to learn.

28:51 - 28:59
And I think many companies, like, let's say, more American mentality that are quite successful,

29:00 - 29:03
please, could use to tap into them.

29:03 - 29:09
But they are rushing so much to deliver value that sometimes some projects kinda are in this limo.

29:09 - 29:11
It's more about shipping than anything else.

29:11 - 29:15
Now on the other side, look at the success that they have.

29:15 - 29:22
So, like, for example, something that I took, and I'm super proud of it, is the way that Amazon

29:22 - 29:26
handles, their own call and operations. It's fantastic.

29:27 - 29:33
They I mean, you can Google it. Spin the wheel process. Fantastic.

29:33 - 29:39
But the story behind the spin the wheel process was several talented engineers, staff engineers,

29:39 - 29:45
decided to try to build a system that will allow us to get proper insights and have everybody

29:46 - 29:49
kind of like a control panopticon and ready to present.

29:49 - 29:52
Because your team could come up any day, and you need to have answers.

29:52 - 29:56
And it was a completely academic way. There is no evil.

29:56 - 29:58
So So it's like, why do you have this peak?

29:58 - 29:59
Why are you doing how are you measuring this?

29:59 - 30:02
Why are you not measuring that? Everybody's in the table.

30:03 - 30:04
So we call her from that.

30:05 - 30:07
I think it's a matter of balance.

30:07 - 30:14
But mainly we all need to understand that we're working with people, and we need to put them on the critical path. That is another question.

30:14 - 30:16
Yeah. That's, it's really well.

30:16 - 30:22
And I can, and I fully agree with that, like, how the Americans are doing it.

30:22 - 30:24
So they are doing, like, really fast, delivery really fast.

30:24 - 30:29
Sometimes when you look from the outside, it's amazing, but from the inside, you look and you say, like, hey.

30:29 - 30:32
Maybe it's a bit too fast, but still, they are successful. So

30:33 - 30:36
I mean but but but the thing is everything comes at a cost.

30:36 - 30:43
If we are, like, super mindful and kumbaya engineering teams, we are not delivering value fast.

30:45 - 30:49
If we are super aggressive and we burn people, I'm not seeing the case for this community, but

30:49 - 30:57
let's say they burn people and when they have a lot of burnout, you are relying on having a constant influx of people.

30:58 - 31:04
I mean, someone like I cannot imagine, like, the work that the the amount of people that they

31:04 - 31:10
recruited from Amazon into process every day because everybody's applied for every single position. Everybody wants to order.

31:13 - 31:14
So it's a matter of balance.

31:15 - 31:16
It's a matter of balance.

31:16 - 31:20
We need to learn how to be customer centric, but everything comes at a price.

31:20 - 31:22
If we are to Kumbaya, we are a must.

31:22 - 31:29
That's why I said, like, let's put the smart people to solve the smart problems and just give them a priority. Let them operate.

31:29 - 31:33
And the longer they stay in your company, the more value they bring.

31:33 - 31:35
Because they understand there's an out.

31:35 - 31:42
There's no it's super expensive to have someone onboarding. It's super expensive.

31:43 - 31:49
Like, for me, initially, to be fully operational in in the core team, One of my teams is core.

31:50 - 31:53
To be, like, fully dependent, 7, 8 months.

31:54 - 31:57
To be on the level that we expect this person to be performing.

31:58 - 32:02
If I born people, like, the moment they're on board, they stay for what?

32:02 - 32:04
For 4, 6 months, and then they leave.

32:05 - 32:11
But we talk a lot, and you mentioned a lot about the people who are really hands on, really

32:12 - 32:16
proactive, like and and you said, like, if you got the projects, for instance, from the SpaceX

32:16 - 32:20
and now you built something completely different, you will do it.

32:20 - 32:25
But there are a lot of projects, like, inside the company, especially if the company is big,

32:25 - 32:26
and you need to run them.

32:26 - 32:32
And not every project is, you know, super sexy, and not everybody is super excited about it.

32:32 - 32:36
So, but, respectfully, I understand your point, but I

32:36 - 32:38
I I know where you're going, and I know you don't mean this.

32:39 - 32:41
But it feels like a generalization.

32:41 - 32:44
For example, I think that there are many ways.

32:44 - 32:46
I don't want to pigeonhole people.

32:46 - 32:48
So I'm going to apply this example to myself.

32:49 - 32:52
But there are many engineers that love greenfield projects.

32:52 - 32:55
In my case, I adopt a refactor. I don't know.

32:55 - 32:58
It's about what part of my personality.

32:59 - 33:03
But if I see a mess, I like to understand the mess, and I like to find.

33:03 - 33:07
I like to decipher the logic, and I like to do this when it's operating.

33:07 - 33:16
I when I join OLX, they have this really big platform and system built in PHP. Yes.

33:16 - 33:17
Let's not laugh at PHP.

33:17 - 33:19
It put bread on my table for many years.

33:19 - 33:21
I did that and I'm happy with it.

33:21 - 33:24
And you can build some really great things if you do it properly.

33:24 - 33:26
Luckily you don't have to anymore.

33:26 - 33:35
So anyway, and my counterpart, my Polish friend that I mentioned, Michal Wasowski, he was doing the greenfield project.

33:35 - 33:39
I mean the guy can operate on anywhere, but they said, like, you know what?

33:39 - 33:40
Let me do the bridge.

33:40 - 33:41
Let me build the vacates.

33:41 - 33:47
Let me do start removing the old system and clean up, clean up, clean up while still being operational.

33:47 - 33:48
And here's the Greenfield project.

33:48 - 33:53
There are engineers who like to mature projects, there are engineers who like the Greenfield

33:53 - 33:57
project and other ones who like to perfect them, like my case.

33:57 - 34:00
So I think it's about putting the right person.

34:00 - 34:08
Right now, for example, my the team I'm responsible for has 12 engineers plus a staff engineer. We continue growing. There are 3 teams.

34:10 - 34:18
And when we when I started it was like this really big daily with 11 people. Sorry, 10 people. Eventually, I grew.

34:18 - 34:22
But it was like, oh, dear god. This is really big.

34:22 - 34:25
Mobile engineers back and front and full stack.

34:25 - 34:32
But when we make the divisions of the team, we try to put the people based on not only on their

34:32 - 34:35
tenure but in when they feel more comfortable to operate.

34:35 - 34:41
Or one of our latest hires, based in Estonia, it's a fully operational guideline.

34:41 - 34:43
He it's up to him.

34:43 - 34:47
He will sit next to the ploughed leader and say okay give me the list of 5:5 shipping.

34:47 - 34:54
And it's doing amazingly on the on calls, handovers, and the trial engineer analysis. He's there.

34:54 - 35:00
He's thinking about the scale infra or a staffing engineer who is basically a code demigod.

35:00 - 35:06
He's working on the core, and the way that we can build our system and protect the volume and everything, he's doing amazingly.

35:07 - 35:08
So it's a matter of competencies.

35:08 - 35:15
But if I bring this super smart, intelligent man to the everyday meetings that I have, he will be depressed.

35:15 - 35:17
Like, he would be unhappy, let's say.

35:18 - 35:22
So it's a matter of finding the right people for for in the right space.

35:23 - 35:28
And many teams have to go to that transition, especially if you started with a small team that created a concept.

35:29 - 35:35
When the concept to a prototype and the prototype is successful, you have a like like a change

35:35 - 35:36
of guard, if you will.

35:37 - 35:41
And usually in my experience around Cinec as a world but on other companies, you have 1 or 2

35:41 - 35:47
of the financial engineers that remain attached, really committed to the project and a lot of new people.

35:48 - 35:55
And if you think as talented as they are, the new people personality wise align, where, like,

35:55 - 36:00
the people that who should have been there, the hustlers to create a project. No. They have different personality.

36:01 - 36:07
I don't know if I would be I'm doing really well at work, but I don't know if I'm the right

36:07 - 36:10
kind of lead to start a project from nothing.

36:11 - 36:17
I'm my based on my experience, I work on more corporate settings when I need to try to understand

36:17 - 36:21
the metering of the tools, the operational scale, working with the business stakeholders.

36:21 - 36:23
I have a different upbringing, if you will.

36:24 - 36:27
So that's the difference that I see.

36:27 - 36:28
Sorry for the long answer.

36:28 - 36:34
No. It's it's great. I think the last thing that you mentioned is, it's good to start another question.

36:34 - 36:40
So because you said, like, I'm not a good leader maybe to start the greenfield project. Right?

36:40 - 36:45
So I would say this is really much your answer, and what I want to what what I want to ask,

36:46 - 36:50
what are your biggest, like, lessons learned that, you know, that each year I feel like each

36:50 - 36:56
year as a as a leader, especially in in tech, you learn something new, and you have this moment. Right?

36:56 - 37:01
So maybe you could mention some moments that were, really important for you and for your career.

37:02 - 37:08
My biggest I have 2. 1 was about my skill set.

37:08 - 37:10
When I moved to Europe, I felt like, yeah.

37:12 - 37:14
I got hired by Amazon. I know everything.

37:14 - 37:16
I don't think I did a good job there.

37:17 - 37:20
I mean, I talked with many other engineers there.

37:20 - 37:22
I was like, no, dude. You were doing great. So, like, yeah.

37:22 - 37:24
But maybe I didn't connect with the culture.

37:25 - 37:30
But that was like okay, first let's kill the ego. You think you know? You know nothing.

37:31 - 37:35
And even if you do know, you cannot come here saying, like, you know everything.

37:35 - 37:36
That was the big uh-huh.

37:37 - 37:44
The second one was when I was at Doel X because I feel like I fell like as a lead, and I went back to coding.

37:44 - 37:46
And when I was hired, they told me, you know what?

37:46 - 37:48
The team doesn't have an an insurance manager.

37:49 - 37:51
The person who was an insurance manager was getting promoted to head.

37:52 - 37:54
That's like the the position is there.

37:55 - 37:58
Whenever you're ready, step in, which I eventually did.

37:59 - 38:04
And in the process, like, let's say, going from the ranks as a senior back end again as a manager,

38:05 - 38:07
I was able to see there were problems.

38:07 - 38:10
Now there's a problem behind the problem behind the problem behind the problem.

38:11 - 38:13
And I saw this on the business side.

38:13 - 38:15
I saw this on the product side.

38:15 - 38:17
I see this on the planning side.

38:17 - 38:20
And I saw this on the personal side of every person on every area.

38:21 - 38:22
That was my second half.

38:23 - 38:30
And the third was showing what is they asked me and this is something that kinda like on a Peter

38:30 - 38:34
Parker Marvel Spider Man thingy with great power comes great responsibility.

38:36 - 38:41
It's after a couple of years and pressure is under your belt and performance reviews and success

38:41 - 38:47
and nice contracts and nice roles and positions and traveling a lot, you realize that you know a lot.

38:47 - 38:51
Like, you know, like, I have other people coming up to ask me, like, how should I do this?

38:51 - 38:52
And so, like, I don't know anything.

38:54 - 38:56
I I my interview process here was like that.

38:56 - 38:57
I needed to present the case.

38:57 - 39:04
I really show my first experience here at work with really specific variables in the middle

39:04 - 39:05
of the work, quite complex.

39:06 - 39:13
And then I realized okay, I know I I certainly know I'm senior enough now. Well, I'm senior enough.

39:13 - 39:17
And it kind of gives you, like, this feeling of speed.

39:18 - 39:21
Then you say, like, I'm operating on a level that I cannot make so many mistakes.

39:22 - 39:24
So it's kind of like you're going downhill.

39:24 - 39:29
It's like speed in full with your bike and then you realize how fast you're going.

39:29 - 39:30
You know you're in control.

39:30 - 39:34
You know everything is fine. But you do realize.

39:34 - 39:39
And you need to keep up on that level, and you realize that you are responsible for a lot of people.

39:39 - 39:42
I I believe in leadership, my servitude.

39:42 - 39:45
That will be the whole closing comment on this answer.

39:46 - 39:53
And if I can have a couple of bad days, but if I systematically fail on doing my job, I'm making

39:53 - 39:59
the life of out of the 12th engineer, probably I'm winning the life for at least half of them.

39:59 - 40:06
If I don't have the right mindset on the 1 on ones, if I don't work properly with our product

40:06 - 40:11
lead, if I'm not responsive enough on the things that I need to do, if I don't plan things properly,

40:12 - 40:16
if I don't do my job well, I'm affecting a lot of people and I don't want that on my conscience.

40:16 - 40:26
So but being able that you need to operate on that and be on that level, it also, like, spills

40:26 - 40:28
to other parts of your of your life.

40:28 - 40:30
You start taking good care of yourself.

40:30 - 40:32
You start, like, doing meditation.

40:32 - 40:34
I do a lot of therapy for since many years.

40:34 - 40:36
I cannot recommend it enough.

40:36 - 40:41
And then you realize, yes, I I'm operating this really big engine.

40:41 - 40:42
I need to be careful.

40:43 - 40:47
So, yeah, on my current process, like, the show was, like, don't worry.

40:47 - 40:48
I won't crash the Ferrari.

40:49 - 40:53
It's the side of the show, referring to a World Cup here in Germany.

40:53 - 40:57
It's like, they crashed the Ferrari because we lost the World Cup. Yeah.

40:57 - 41:07
So I can't you can't cross the Ferrari and you're driving really fast. That was the moment. Oh, god moment. So yeah.

41:08 - 41:10
The last question that I have Yeah.

41:10 - 41:16
It's, can you recommend any books, podcasts, or maybe resources that were particularly helpful for yourself?

41:17 - 41:22
Buy it to our boss phone or wherever you get your books, the daily stoic.

41:22 - 41:26
Because I can talk about many mythologies, so I'm going to say 2 things.

41:27 - 41:29
On the ego part, the daily stoic.

41:30 - 41:34
You make your coffee in the morning, you wake up before anybody in your family and this is what I do.

41:35 - 41:40
Well, I usually go to a gym but when I do it, I have my family so quiet, I do my daily reflection.

41:41 - 41:43
You can do the journal, in the meditation, whatever.

41:43 - 41:47
This is what works for me: coffee and a reflection, like staying humble on that.

41:48 - 41:55
And the second one is try to find your own style of working because I can suggest is, keep mentioning

41:55 - 42:02
this thing that the 3 amigos, everybody on the same table, be an empathetic leader, That might

42:02 - 42:04
work for you, and that might not.

42:04 - 42:09
And maybe based on your personality, you need to be like a super assertive leader that is a

42:09 - 42:11
nice person that is super direct.

42:11 - 42:20
I had I I had one of my best leads, Tech Lead, Marco Soradino, really wise man on so many areas

42:20 - 42:21
of life, especially in engineering.

42:22 - 42:27
He would sit with me, and he said, like, on the core reviews, I like me growing up professionally.

42:29 - 42:30
And he would do the gesture.

42:30 - 42:32
Like, I'm what do you think?

42:35 - 42:39
And usually, when I sit with a person, it's like, I think we should consider the 3 variables.

42:40 - 42:44
And I'm already framing the discussion because I think that this is more convenient, the way I communicate.

42:45 - 42:49
But this great man, he will just be quiet and let me do the work.

42:49 - 42:51
So it depends on you.

42:51 - 43:00
So meditate, be humble, and yes, and I'm pretty sure on your podcast there are a lot of really great books.

43:00 - 43:03
The Managed Path, 1st Break All the Rules.

43:03 - 43:09
Also, I forgot the the authors that I know about, but they are pretty like, if you Google them, you can find them.

43:10 - 43:15
They are fantastic books. 1st protocol the rules if you really want to have 1, but, on the manager path.

43:17 - 43:19
But, yeah, but try to find your style.

43:19 - 43:26
Like, think about what how are you happy operating or doing things and then go into that because

43:26 - 43:31
we'll always be missing some technique or book or reading. I read everything.

43:31 - 43:33
I mean, reading is fun.

43:33 - 43:35
We have a lot of downtime between meetings. Read.

43:37 - 43:42
So to to be honest, like, a lot of what I notice, a lot of experienced guys and leaders with

43:42 - 43:47
whom I talk and I'm making those podcasts, they usually are saying, like, maybe I will surprise

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you and are saying about the stoics, about the philosophy, about the things that are outside

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of the tech bubble and, like, classical things.

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And to be honest, they are the most successful.

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This is what I notice within, like, you know, the the committee with Huang Talk.

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So it makes a lot of sense to me.

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Yeah. I I don't know what I it worked well for me. I humbly present it.

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But, I I mean, I I was lucky enough to go to a couple of talks in the building here from Sarando.

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There was this LGBTQ leader.

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And, she was talking about many topics.

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But one of the topics was about consent in communication.

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Because we always talk about consent Like, okay.

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Do can I hold your hand or like break this barrier or like many things?

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But there is also consent of communication and, I really like this idea.

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And then I said, like, okay.

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I'm going to apply this.

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Who am I communicating with?

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Am I imposing my communication style?

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And then I took that, and then I realized that really improved my one on ones.

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But it's a matter of saying, like, guys, we all code.

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Sometimes we don't know what's going on in production, and we try things.

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So try, measure the result, try again.

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And whatever keeps you driving and moving forward, go for it.

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We have to read about everything.

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The best designers in the world, the best engineers in the world not as we said not a sign that

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I preach to but the strip shops always have like a rather higher engineer that scored 8, but

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also plays guitar and read books, than an engineer that scored 10 and the only thing he does is coding.

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And I think he got that right.

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Again, it's not I know he's really great at selling computers and a great person but, but he

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got that right among many other things.

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We have to be more, renaissance or more holistic as professionals. No issues, everyone.

45:45 - 45:47
Okay. So the last question. Last question

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Yeah. I love this. Thank you.

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Because, you mentioned how you learn.

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So you learn a lot from the mentor, from your leader. Right? Yeah.

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You said about the books outside of the, let's say, the classical scope of the manager or the leader.

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And, for me my experience was, like, I read those books.

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Like, I I read 10 of like tons of business books.

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But what I learned the most are is the experience in my own mistakes, which is maybe Yeah.

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Quite obvious, or I learned from other people talking with them, like, in general, in really loose atmosphere.

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But maybe I was not, lucky enough, but I never learned anything from the organized trainings. Like, any

46:31 - 46:36
anything. Well, because maybe some companies, not everyone.

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Luckily, I was lucky enough on that.

46:39 - 46:40
They they make the trials for compliance.

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They don't make the trials to make you grow.

46:43 - 46:51
And also I tried several platforms And there is this, kind of like easy pill to swallow trainings.

46:53 - 46:55
I don't want to mention any because I think it will be unfair.

46:55 - 47:00
And the second that I saw is, like, take this course about handling disagreement.

47:00 - 47:08
And there was this person, and they bring, like, I know, the chief staff engineer from Microsoft. I was like, yes.

47:08 - 47:15
This person, like, started with Bill Gates, and they presented 5 bullet points, and that's it. Finished course.

47:15 - 47:17
Share a link in our social network.

47:19 - 47:23
Dude, it was like 12 millions. Where's the meat?

47:24 - 47:31
So the last source of knowledge that I got to operate and also to understand the system that

47:31 - 47:35
I'm building, that we are building, I should talk with the engineers.

47:35 - 47:38
I mean, I'm lucky enough to work now with 2 staff engineers.

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I I sit with them like technical handovers.

47:42 - 47:49
I I grab a metaphorical bubble popcorn. Yes. Take me to school. It's fantastic.

47:50 - 47:53
And they are telling you all this information you're missing out on the day to day.

47:53 - 47:57
And there are highly skilled engineers that are able to condense it properly and they are not

47:57 - 48:01
giving me a special class for me, they are talking to engineers so I better keep up.

48:01 - 48:03
So that keeps me on the edge of knowledge.

48:04 - 48:09
And then I talk with the pro plate and it's the same, then I talk with the CTO and try to understand the business need.

48:09 - 48:15
I mean every time I show a company it's I literally ask what is the why are you hiring me? Not not not me.

48:15 - 48:21
What what's the problem that you're trying to solve? And why me? Why me? No. No.

48:21 - 48:25
Because we need an Israeli that is going to be the x y zed. What?

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Any any lead can do that. That is not interesting. No.

48:28 - 48:29
We have this really big product. We don't understand.

48:30 - 48:35
We are in the process of phasing out this this, thing a now to thing b.

48:35 - 48:38
Like we need someone to set a strategy on that. Okay, that's more interesting.

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So who are the people anymore?

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Talk to that that and let's talk to other people. Like, get in deep.

48:44 - 48:46
That's the knowledge that we need to do on the day to day.

48:46 - 48:50
Then the methodology is up to us. Read and talk.

48:50 - 48:52
Yeah, usually, corporate trainings are compliant.

48:53 - 48:57
Awesome. Juan, like, thank you very much for a super interesting talk.

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I really appreciate your insights.

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Thank you for listening to me on my on my runs.

49:02 - 49:04
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