Yariv Hasar: Navigating Tech Challenges - Resilient and Agile Leadership

Disclaimer:
This transcription of the podcast is AI-generated and may contain errors or inaccuracies.

Matt

My name is Matt and I will be talking with Yariv Hasar about innovative management techniques, the importance of understanding both product and engineering perspectives. Yeah. So without any further ado, I always like the other big questions and go straight to the point. And when we recently talked, there there was a lot of topics that came out. But the one thing, was really interesting for me. So, I mean, you served in military for almost 25 years, and now now you are still in the  reserve duty in Israel's army. I'm just wondering how this experience affect affect the daily work.

And on top of that, we have plenty of some ordinates, right, who are still in a reserve duty, and you are in a in a in a conflict right now. So for sure, I assume it should impact your daily work. If you could elaborate on those.

Yariv Hasar

Yes. So, actually, one of the thing that I got out of the military is to wake up early, as you all already got familiarized with. So, yes, we waking up early, starting the the the work early in the morning, it's something Matt, actually, I got from the military. Also, the the the entire work work ethic, I will say, it is something that is very generic, not for me, for for most of the people in Israel. I think that the work ethic that came out of the military is something that everyone wants to to maintain. On the other end, there are some other caveats, I will call it, Matt for example, the language. We are using a lot of military terminology.

So sometimes for for an external person, it might seems too aggressive or something, but but it is mainly adapted from the military, I would say, slang and and, abbreviatives and stuff like that. So this is something that and you mentioned my subordinates, some subordinates that are coming from the military. So it's depend on the unit. Sometimes you are using a specific terminology that is very much unique to the air force, and you need to expand it to the people from the intelligence, for example, and stuff like that. So so the the I think that the military slang and and way of thinking is and speaking is something that also is actually affecting the daily. And one other interesting topic, in the military, you are moving, between rows, every 2 or 3 years, And this, I'll call it, expiration date that you have to any given role is very much evident, I would say, because you want to make an impact. You have short time for Matt.

And and it it is something that is also I took it also for the civilian work that I'm doing. So I'm I'm I'm coming in the morning. I want to make the the day effective and to make some some meaningful impact. The same as in reserve duty because while I'm working full full fledged. So every once in a while, I'm doing night shifts or or weekends in the military. I want it to Matt. And for that, you want to make an impact.

So you are being, mindful on the time and trying to make it as as effective and impact impactful as much as much as possible. Sorry.

Matt

So that's really interesting. I'm just wondering how do you start your day. So let's say you plan to be really impactful at this day. So when I'm starting, I have a to do list, and I try to organize a day before with the priorities,

Yariv Hasar

what needs to be done next day. And I'm wondering what is your approach, like, to plan the day to, to be really impactful. So I would say that I think that it's very much similar. So we are I'm waking up in the morning, doing my exercise, looking about what's what's going on in the world and it it work because of time zone. So there is something going on either in the US time zone or Australia or whatever depending on the world that you are doing. So you are catching up about the the the doing from the from the night, and then you are looking at the at the at the calendar looking I'm using all the to do list. I'm not using to do list, honestly.

I'm using the calendar itself as something there because I'm I'm putting slots for everything there. And I'm replanning doing some real retention because of changes or because of things that have come up over the night. But and I think that one of the interesting stuff of it is the end of the day. Because I'm in the military, we've we've came into the habit of and specifically in the air force about doing a deep reef. And every, I would say, night, whenever I'm before I'm going to sleep, I'm I'm doing some kind of a retro for the day.

Was it impactful? What did I did? Okay. What need what I need to improve for the next day or for the next week? Things that so this debrief, I think it's very much important and it's something that it is I I didn't see that, happened a lot in in other people that are not from from the military or from the air force. So I'm doing that almost on a daily basis, and sometimes I've even doing this also on a weekly basis and, honestly, also on a yearly basis. So I and I made all the family to do that on a on a quarterly basis and a yearly basis.

You need to have some some targets for the year. You need to, mindful on that over the course of time to track about it and to do some retrospective what worked for us, what didn't work for us. So, yes, my daughters loves me a lot as you can imagine.

Matt

But but I think it's a great habit, to be honest. So what what I'm doing, and I heard what a lot of people are doing.

I have a baby journal from stoics. So I try to, retrospectively look in the in the past, look at the day, and think about the things that I have done and what I haven't accomplished. So I I I think it's a great habit, and you get it out of the military. Right? So I think it's a great lesson. And

Yariv Hasar

Yes. Always think about how you can improve the next day or the next week or the next month.

Matt

But isn't it okay. So what you said, like, how to improve and how to improve. I, as an entrepreneur, and I I I noticed that many entrepreneurs have this problem. Right? So we are all in a constant stage when the things are not finished. Right? You constantly are working to improving the organization, constantly working on improving the department, and you are in a constant state.

I never have such a feeling, but you are in a constant state that you are not happy with the results because you see that something more could be done. Do you know what I mean?

Yariv Hasar

Yeah. But but I think so. But remember that sometimes, the the enemy of of good is is the best. So I will say when you are having target or mission to accomplish, define the definition of of done. What is done for you? What you what are what are the KPIs? What you are trying to achieve exactly?

And then sometimes it will not be exactly as you imagine it, but you will meet the end criteria. So defining the end criteria in in targets, in projects, in in activities is very because you have an, I would say, a mental image of what success looks like in any target, but but it always it it's seldom the case that this is the the the success, but sometimes you are succeeding in what's important. It's simply different from what you imagine. Again, they can, the the cost of of military, it's the same. It is said that the a good plan, a good a good war plan is is the basis for changes because you don't know how the the battlefield will look like, but you know what success looks like in terms of that.

Matt

And, how do you lead the organization or the the department in which you are at the very moment? Right? You are in a stage of a conflict, and a lot of your your subordinates, they are in military duty. So in each day, the things could change for you. Like, planning, I assume Matt really hard. How this affect your work? How do you deal with that?

Yariv Hasar

Yeah. Thank you for the question. I think that it's very much different because we are quite a substantial amount of months, in this conflict. So now it's become a habit or within. So we know how to coexist, I would say, within the conflict. At the beginning, it was much more harsh because a lot of people were going to reserve duty, going to defend the, the homeland, and then you need to fill in. So in here, first of all, a lot of communication, daily stand ups, evening stand ups in order to align to understand what have happened.

Some of the people have moved. Some of the people became available and very much prioritized. We did several tiers of of of priority.

Tier 0 is something that must have. Tier 1 is something that nice to have. Tier 2, let's not deal with that at this point. Over the course, after a couple of weeks, we started to look at tier 2. And when we had a meeting with the with with customers from from abroad and they offered to delay their timelines and things like that, no. We said that we are delivering no matter what, and it was important to us to to ensure the continuity of the business, what's important. So any obligation outside the obligation, some of the internals even, we made a specific for a discussion about it with the team. Are we able to do it?

How we can do it? And should we do it? And we did those discussion as with all the the troubles offered the people, and they understood then necessity of that. They understood what is that means both for the company's sake, but also from even from from country, economics, and resiliency, and and trust. And I'm I I think that And I'm I I think that in this case, while I think that we performed remarkable, we weren't that exceptional relative to other companies in Israel because we understand the importance of business continuity even in in conflict times, be it longer. So and we are catching up.

We are prioritizing. People are stepping in in in other people's shoes, every once in a while. But this solidarity actually strengthen us, and build the team much more than, you know, the the the normal days that that you have a conflict. You have internal politics within the team. But now there is an external factor that actually binds us together much more than than we we were before. Yeah. That's that's impressive.

So you were you were fighting to support the economy and the the company and the the other people were fighting, during the comp. Right? So there's, like,

Matt

a okay. And, Yariv, because, recently when you talk, I was really impressed, about your work at the Amdocs. So you had the impact for 7,000 people. 7000 people.

That's a lot. And I'm just wondering about the routines, any goal setting practices or habits, that have proven effective for you on such a scale.

Yariv Hasar

Yeah. So I was the division president of, Amdocs Delivery, Global Delivery. It's a global organization worldwide with the around the globe from from, I think we had been 4 5 continents, I think, or so. Actually, the development centers and and customers all around the globe. It is the biggest division in Amdocs. Now, first of all, it's a lot of work, to be honest. I think that the main, I would say, takeaway, learn to love it even if you don't love it.

Love love the the activity. Love the, the people. And and if you love them, so it it it's it's not a work. It's actually something that you are so so and then you need to do a lot of communication. I think I heard in another another episode of yours, Matt, talking about communication, and, and I and I think that you need to promote communication and open discussion dialogues with the team. So even though it was 7,000 people, I was walk walking down the corridors, be it in in in the center in Israel, be it in the center in India, and doing casual meetings meetups in the kitchen, in the in the cough near the coffee machine. It's much more important to some extent to to set the tone.

And here, you need to do a buying. You cannot make decision. You need to do a buying, and and it's very tempting to make a decision. Okay. From now on, this is the way that we are working. We are moving from waterfall to agile. We are changing, the architecture from from monoliths to microservices. Yes. It's it's easy to to take the decision.

It's much harder to do a buy in and to convince. And if you are but if you are managing to convince, it stays within the organization, And then you don't need to look around. It's actually happens. And I just had a meeting, with a friend of mine yesterday that he he mentioned about a person, a former employee of mine in Amdocs Matt is now in another company, but the the way of thinking that I instilled in him still reside. I said, you are a developer, but you need to think business because engineering is great. But if you are if it if the the bottom line is not making sense, so everyone loses for the long term, even the engineering. And this mindset that I instilled with him back then is Matt still resonant with him up until now.

But once I did that, I managed to do a real turnaround of of the division because it's it wasn't me. It was them. Once I convinced them with the what and the and the why, then you you are able to do whatever it takes in order to make it happen.

Matt

And another thing that we are discussing and this that relates to your transition from military, from army to a private company. And we were discussing managing and firing employ employees, how this is different in those two environment, and how, like, army influenced the way how you did, private company. Actually, it's a it's

Yariv Hasar

a great question because I think that one of the uniqueness in the military so I I mentioned the expiration date, but, also, you are not able to select your team. You are being assigned to a team Matt, with each of them as a different expiration date, but you have a given team, and you need you need to win the war. You need to build this project. You need to to to do something with this team, and you are not it's very difficult to change the team as we go on, and you don't have enough time because changing them, so fading out the the the person that you decided that is not, equipped to the team and doing an onboarding for a new cam camera, it takes a lot of time and you have an experience in it. So one of the thing that that I've learned and it's also I would call it a bias of me even in the CBN is you have a given set of team, not of people.

Now learn them. Learn the team and change the role and responsibility sometimes in order to to fit the people rather than change the people in order to fill to fill specific roles because then it's much more efficient in most of the times. The return on investment in this case is significantly smaller, again, in most of the cases. So I'm very reluctant of and and it's it's internal bias, I will say, of changing the people. I'm trying to get along with what what I get, in terms of people and try to make the most out of them to, to scale them up, to elevate them, and to strengthen them and to challenge them, but with within reason. But and then you are you are able in a couple of months to to do a significant impact and then turn around of an organization even without changing people. If you are changing people, so it's about a a quarter or so to to transition out, another quarter that you of a transition in here because you need to recruit the person and everything, and it takes a lot of time.

And there is also another weaknesses because we are all human, and the newcomers also have some weaknesses, be it from even if it was promoted from from within or whatever. So you need to deal with another set of of boundaries and and constraint. So understand what you have at place, and now go win whatever you need to win.

Matt

No. It's a very interesting approach. I haven't I haven't seen that in the past. So not but, like, usually, people were saying about the firing people. So, I I I think that's a

Yariv Hasar

Most of the layoffs that I did over the course of time is because of, I would say, the economic constraint and constraint and not necessarily because of first placement. It's a yes. As I said, this is a bias. Some people some managers of mine don't appreciate the this approach, but it is what it is. It works for me.

Matt

So let's dig deeper in, in your experience here. I'm just wondering as, as a tech leader, a leader leader in tech. I'm always looking for some kind of, contrarian approaches on something controversial, your controversial opinions regarding, I don't know, building the the the teams or leading the engineering teams Matt might be you know, that that works for you, but maybe are not so common on the market. Right? Do you have some kind of, things like this?

Yariv Hasar

Yes. Actually, I do.

When I was, I would say, raised as an engineer, I had to do everything. I need, I was a software developer for an f 16, but I am not an f 16 pilot. So I had to, discuss with the end user the pilots and to understand what what are their needs, and then I need to frame it and to build it within the software itself. Honestly, I was a very lousy product manager in this aspect, but I was a very good engineer, so it took me a while. But the the ability to see it end to end from the pilot perspective until the even the quality assurance throughout the entire process actually made me better engineer. And while nowadays, I'm I'm much more attuned to the fact that you need that the prod product by design or design product, product strategy, product evolution is a profession on its own, and it's very much different in a lot of aspect from engineering per se. I think that they need to coexist together, and you need to lower the common denominator as much as possible.

Meaning, sometimes you have you you have a a product stream and you have an engineering stream, and they meet on the c level, under the CEO because they're chief product and they'll see for engineering or whatever. And and then and any clash and any dilemma existing the CEO. Sometimes, because of personality and people, you can do 2 in a box and they get along. But sometimes it's not it's not always the case. And my personal belief is you need to lower the rank of when it's they are coexisting together. So if you have a project, have both the product of this product and the engineering of this product of of this project report to the same prod project manager. By that, you have a much better alignment.

All the dilemmas and the conflicts that are inherently within this, conflict will be solved in a in a lesser rank, which means Matt probably it will have much more sense because the the higher you are getting in order to con to, to to resolve a conflict, you are getting something much more arbitrary and less of of the details. It's because of people, persona, politics, and sometimes simply because of lack of knowledge about the details of of the dilemma. So you want the dilemma between the product and the engineering to be solved in the least rank that you can, with the constraint that understanding that product and engineering are different professions.

Matt

And you worked in a really high level leadership in this company, in the previous companies, and I'm just wondering what are the biggest pain points or the challenges in your role that are not widely discussed or maybe not seen from the outside. Right?

Yariv Hasar

So, actually, in an Matt previous episode, I I believe it was episode 88. I don't remember the name of the guest, but he said you are part of the team, but you are not in the team. And I think that this is actually it's always the case. You are part of the team, but you are not in the team. You are alone in this aspect, and you are not alone. You have colleagues, a lot of friends, every but all of them are are biased, have some interest, sometimes unintentionally, but and and it they are not but the and they have their own perspective of things. And you have a very unique perspective of of the problem that with the problems that, that company states, be it on the higher end your own organization, Matt needs to face.

And this is this unique point of view, makes you alone in data attack. You can consult with everything, but you need to remember that each sees is part of the elephant if if you get my analogy on that. Because but the only one that is able to see the full fledged elephant is you, beat your team. So there's sometimes you are not able to convince in the right approach because of that. Sometimes, you don't have anyone to consult with and you will make mistake, and you need to deal deal with that. So this loneliness to some extent to some extent because at the end of the day, it's a team effort. Any success and failure to some extent, but you need to deal with that.

You need to have the internal resilience, strength, and belief in order to to make it a successful journey and and happy one because if not, you can go into the loneliness and and be very upset. But, no, it's you need to accept it.

It's part of the d.

Matt

And then you do a lot of reflections and, retrospectives, and I think you are still learning a lot, based on that fact. And I'm just wondering, in your case, 2024, I'm just wondering, what are your current challenges? What are the pain points that on on which you want to build your knowledge or learn something new?

Yariv Hasar

It's it's interesting. So I think Matt, one of the thing that I've learned over the course of years is the is how to scale how to scale organization, products, businesses, if you will, and how to scale it right and and and in in a resilience way. And as I said, from from the people perspective, from the human factor in Israel, unfortunately, to be honest, we are, delivering no matter what, and we are very much resilient. I think that the overall world is becoming a a little bit less, stable. Some will say it's not a little. And this resiliency, we need to, to be all around, and people need to adapt this resiliency and to learn how to, to build with the with the right mindset altogether, how to build their organization, their their teams. I'm, nowadays, I'm I'm looking at on a lot of, startups that are struggling in in the a or b and c phase I'm consulting with a lot.

I think it's a it's a fascinating journey. You you need to solve for specific API for a specific target against all load, and you need to be able to be flexible enough and and elastic, if you will, to change and to detour and to pivot your product, your business case, based on what's what is going on. So this agility on one end and resiliency on the other, because I don't think it's it's contradict. You need to be agile, and resilient altogether. And I think that this is the main challenge of of the world at this point, from the business perspective of the world at these days because things are moving faster in and in in in stable order. What is your hardest thing you have ever done in your career, and what are the lessons learned from it? So, Ummet, actually, you shared with me you gave me an heads up about this question, and it those was the that was the, difficult question to to think about.

And I will tell you what. I think that I did a a career pivot, if you will. It changed, I think, 3 or 4 times in the past. I moved from from an a very successful role position meeting the software that I was leading software programs and everything, and then I moved to to marketing and then to strategic, as well as to strategic thinking and and teams. I moved from from managing a lot of people to, running to relocate to the United States from a very successful successful division president of 7,000 employees to 400 employees in in in Pagaya. So overall the overall the cost of time, when it was felt very comfortable, I moved to another I did a pivot to the career. And I think in all of them, up until now, I'm not sure about the future.

In all of them, this jump and change was very educate educational for me. I learned a lot. It was very much I I woke up in in the morning wide open, eager to learn new things and and to change and to make an impact. And the overall perspective is that those changes in the career actually made me much better manager because I have the ability to look at when when I'm running a product a project or a product, I can think about what does it mean from from the strategical perspective, what does it mean from the marketing perspective, and how it will be managed by the services after that. Because I was in all of those activities in the Matt, and I was running them, and I learn out of them. So, overall, I think that my my the lesson learned is if you are getting too comfortable in your role, in your, and you are moving up the ladder, change the ladder. Change Change the ladder, you will be much better than that.

And at the end of the day, you may be getting to the elevator.

Matt

I think it's a great mindset. It reminds me the it reminds me. Recently, I was watching tennis, Roland Garros tournament in, in in Yariv, and Carlos Arcaras, he won the tournament. And he had, like, really tough time during the Matt. And they asked him, like, how you overcome this, you know, and then he said, like, you need to find the pleasure in the play.

So it's like it's a bit like that. Right? When you feel, too comfortable, you are looking for another kind of pain to learn something new because it's it's fun. It's fun to go through through it. Right?

Yariv Hasar

Yes. So I love it. You need to find the pleasure and the pain. The the there are two kinds of pain.

I'm looking at it. Sometimes, there is a pain that breaks you, and there is the pain that builds you. So enjoy the the pleasure of the pain.

Matt

And the last question that, Yariv, that I have, it's, I'm just wondering. Can could you recommend any books or maybe resources called, for instance, podcast that help you, to become a become a leader or change your mindset?

Yariv Hasar

It's a great question. I I'm an avid book reader, to be honest. And, actually, I in my LinkedIn, I just shared a few weeks ago. I shared a list of recommended books. And one of my reader of the LinkedIn actually read one of the books and was astonished and made another post on Matt. So it make me so, so you better listen to my recommendation altogether. This is my this is my recommendation.

So I I will go from books perspective. So first, LinkedIn. Your LinkedIn and mine, I think that they are very good resources, and they are giving you perspective about the world, about things, and you can get list of, of books. So from the books perspective, I will go with the fundamentals as I see Matt. 2 books, both of them have have been written 100 of years ago. 1 is the the art of war. I know it sounds about military and and stuff, but at the end of the day, it's about organization, about leadership, about strategy.

So the art of war, I think it's a it's a great fundamental book. And the other one is, the prince, that talks a bit about more about the geopolitical and stuff and ruling of a kingdom, but, again, it's very much similar. Ruling of a kingdom, and running an organization. And I think that those are 2 books are are great one to to start with on the fundamentals, when you give you a lot of perspective about strategy and leadership. From podcast, of course, this this podcast is is a great one. I also enjoy, the Freakonomics network and and and podcast. I think that they give you a very interesting representation of the economic side of things, and I think Matt, makes you think about things that you are seeing in the world, about the implication and what's going on.

So I think that this is pretty much I I gave a lot of time for the audience to to learn and to educate and always always keep on learning. Overall, that's the last recommendation that I can give.

Matt

Amazing. Yariv, thank you very much for really insightful conversation. I really appreciate all the tips and hints and your lesson. Thank you for that.

Yariv Hasar

Thank you, Matt. Follow Matt on LinkedIn, and subscribe to the Better Tech Leadership newsletter.

‍