José Ignacio Díaz: Breaking Barriers - The Journey of a Tech Leader in Startup Culture

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My name is Matt, and I will be talking with Jose Ignacio Diaz about strategies for navigating

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layoffs and the intersection of technology and business.

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So, Fozar, you're really seasoned CTO, I would say.

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You work in attack for pretty long time.

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How many years is it already?

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18, I think. 18 years. Well I believe so. Yeah. So you

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are adults now, let's say, in Adecc, we get set. Yes. Yes. Yes.

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You, you are Spanish, but you worked in Amsterdam, like, really hot scene especially for the

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startups a while ago as we discussed it.

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And now for 8 years, you're in Switzerland and we are in Zurich.

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And we were discussing really interesting thing because you told me that Zurich is like the innovation hub here.

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And maybe you could tell tell more about it, why this is innovation hub.

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Because, like, my understanding like, sorry, another thing, was, it's really my understanding

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was it's really hard to launch something here, especially startup because market is so small.

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But it turned I'm wrong.

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Well, Switzerland is, is very specific because we have the DACH region for us.

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So we are reaching to Germany, Austria, and and especially in Zurich, there is, some population

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with a lot of profiles and different backgrounds and tons and tons of rationalities that they

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come together to build new things.

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So what you're gonna find here is a lot of hunger for building new products that new ideas that

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they can they can change the life of people.

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And there is a culture of, doing that.

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There is a lot of, support, especially from from, VCs and and to the community, and there is

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no fear for for failing.

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So that that's, together creates the the the perfect, conditions for people to start, spinning

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off, companies and and products.

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And you told, like, there's a lot of headquarters, right, of, like, big corporations here?

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Yes. So when when we talk about addressable market and we say, like, but how come because Switzerland

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is so small and the population is so specific, and actually we have, like, 4 different official language here.

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We have, as we said, we have a lot of, headquarters of corporations and branches of of, big

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companies that you can reach out and they are very, very open to listen to you, to your product

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and to try out and to and and to start testing if what you can offer is actually a solution for them.

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So it's very small, but there is a lot of big companies here, located in in Zurich.

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And there is some big recession like last year,

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a lot of layoffs in tech, a lot of changes on the market, focus on the productivity.

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Like this 2024, it's kind of like a weird year because I see like a mix of positive signals and negative signals.

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Nobody will know, like, how the year will, you know, evolve. Yeah.

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And I'm wondering how do you see it, from your perspective, Switzerland?

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Because you are here quite a while. Mhmm.

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Do you feel affected by the by those layoffs, by the financing from the VCs? Yes.

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Yes. So I think that the the main problem is that there is a lot of talent that has lost their

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positions, in in big companies, and in small companies.

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So just to name a few, it's Google, Facebook, they they they lay they lay off people, but also affected small companies.

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So you have, 5 people and you fire.

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You need to fire economically speaking to it's it's a huge portion of your company.

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And there is no, a lot of money coming into the into the market from the business, not so easy

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to rise and and to to right now and to start with, a wood sheet money, let's call.

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And, also, the companies are not able to generate such amount of incomes where they can afford

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to hire with risk or to pay, the the salaries that the people should be paid.

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So therefore, the the companies are hiring externally.

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So they are reaching out to external developers, which is also very good, but, you know, there

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is a lot of operation inside where cannot find a place or it's difficult to find a place. The competition is higher.

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So we I think we are experiencing a moment where there is too many people in the market, not

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so many positions, and, I think a lot of people is is just working remotely outside Switzerland,

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and that's a good thing for us because, you know, we can we can find places.

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But this is, yeah, it is a difficult situation right now.

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Are you optimistic about this year and next year? Like

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Yeah. Absolutely. I'm I'm very, very hey. I'm super optimistic. Yeah.

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Because tech is something that change constantly, you know?

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And is is I believe we are it's not the last time.

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It's not the first time that we are experiencing this situation.

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And I think there is going to be a moment, especially with the introduction of, AI technologies

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where new products are being born, where it's evident that you need a lot of money even this

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cost is super expensive, and there is a lot of talent.

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So I think in the moment, especially in Switzerland, in the moment that the companies are gonna

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say see that there is a lot of talent and then a lot of products that can be born here in Zurich,

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and money is going to come.

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Again, companies are gonna be able to to produce revenue, and people is gonna be higher back even from the outside.

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I don't think there won't be enough people here to to supply the demand of what I think we are gonna expect to.

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One more interesting thing that you told me is about

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letting go people here, that that's pretty easy.

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Like, in my in my I was always thinking, like, I put the DACH region, right, in one bucket.

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I think Germany, Austria, and Switzerland and then it's super hard to fire somebody.

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So it's already costly to hire people and fire people.

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But you told us complete the opposite, right?

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Yes. So in Switzerland, usually the standard contract is something like once you pass your,

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probation period, so it's usually between 1 3 months, Then you have your notice period, which

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usually go from 1, 2, to 3 months as well.

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And once you, for example, has to take the the the company needs to take the decision to let

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go someone, you just have to give the the notice, the to the to the person, the reason.

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Usually, it's behind a reason performance, economically speaking. And that's basically it.

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You don't need I mean, I know well the the German market, and you don't need to pass through

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all the, checks and why you are letting letting go of someone.

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Maybe we could talk a bit more about your new venture because this is interesting. Beso, it's billing. Right? Beso.

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And you are really excited about the innovation in the AI.

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So there is, like, a part of AI there. Yes.

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Maybe you could tell a few words because I think you haven't talked before to anybody.

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You are in a still mode, more or less.

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Yes. Yes. I'm in a still mode. Yes.

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So Bezo is is actually, first thing, is an amazing group of people that come together thanks

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to to Philip, the the CEO that that make this possible to to make these people to come together.

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And second, we are solving a real problem in the world.

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So there is the everyone hear about the trading words between countries.

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And with the help of, AI and machine learning, we are going to be able so we are going to we

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are able to solve the tight problems that companies have when they are sending different goods, around the world.

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So our solution will save literally, 1,000,000,000, to these companies. Faster, cheaper.

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That's true. That's true. It's so, yes, we are still developing the the the software, and we

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are, talking with the the first clients that we are having.

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But it's a super exciting opportunity. Again, super innovative.

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The landscape in in Switzerland of companies like this is almost nonexistent, and, it's a crazy idea. It's very ambitious.

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And I don't know if it will be possible to be done in any other country than Switzerland and

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and the US, to be honest.

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Again, because we have a lot of backgrounds here inside.

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So we have people from Greece, from Spain.

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We have a lot of nationalities inside with a lot of expertise come together.

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I think this is essential for developing great products to have a lot of different mindsets inside.

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So you are not the CTO for the first time, and I'm always wondering what are the hardest things,

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in this role that nobody is maybe talking wildly about it, it.

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Like, we're open so open about it that we don't see from the outside.

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I think it's to be honest, there is the mental resilience that you need to have because

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you have with you working with you a lot of, let's say, developers in tech or data scientists

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or designers where they have their own personal problems with their families, with their lives.

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So what I try to do, and I see many people I meet in social doing it, is I try to understand

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how this person feels in their normal life in order that when we are developing or when we are

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working together, it's not a stone on the way.

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So it's, you know, it's not a problem for this person to work.

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So getting to know what is happening to everyone, keeping it for yourself, and trying to channel

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different solutions for members of your team is is really is really tough mentally.

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I I I experienced that.

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You can mitigate that, but I think no one is really talking about that.

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And I I have a feeling that you are really close to the business. Right?

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When we talk about the, about the, BESO, You talk about, like, the goal of having the contracts with the clients. Right? Yes.

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You are a tech leader, but you are thinking, like, about the business and you want to affect

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the business because this is the main thing, which I think it's, it's it's great.

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But especially in those small startups or, like, a small companies, I have a feeling and what

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I saw before that non tech people, like business people, are really not getting along with the

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tech people or tech leaders. Right?

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They kind of it's really hard to find the common knowledge to understand each other problems

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or visions and why something takes so much time and how to approach it.

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Like, why do you think it's so and how to how to solve it on or how do you solve it in your case?

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I think it's hard because there needs to be a will to understand, first of all.

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Once there is a will to understand and one there is a once there is understanding from your

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own, what are your capabilities?

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So I work with lawyers, and I really don't know law, right, in any in any way.

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You may I may think I know. I know. I don't.

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So if the lawyer is telling to me what has to happen, I 100% trust each person, And then you

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introduce the element of trust.

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So how I try to solve it is once I communicate with the team or with with one of the teams and

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they explain to me what's going on, technically speaking, to a level that I understand it. What's the problem?

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Why we cannot solve it earlier? What's going on?

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I tried to under to to explain that to to the truck owner, to the CEO, and I'm sorry to the

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to the rest of the management.

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What does the what Which is a problem that we are experiencing in simple or more simple words?

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And if they want to understand more technically speaking, we hold a separate meeting where we so and tell.

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So, look, this is happening here.

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That is why it's happening.

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So we I try to get the whys of what's going on very, very, very clear that they can trust it

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into a 100%, And this why is usually is what you have to tell the client afterwards.

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Because I haven't met a client that is going to just eat you alive because because you didn't,

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arrive to the deadline that you had unless you you didn't tell this person, you know, why are

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you why why it's happening.

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But usually it's very comprehensive.

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The people are very comprehensive when they know why. Right?

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Because tech is, not something linear.

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It's just one day something works very well, the next day something goes wrong and and and you

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don't know how long it's going to take you to solve it.

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Once people understand why, it's

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it's really okay. But, I have such a feeling, like, this is really perfectly agree with that,

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but I, I I feel that this, like, simple explanation and understanding the the business perspective

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because I'm engineer, like, I'm engineer, but, I work more in a business area. Yeah.

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And what I notice especially, for instance, with the tech leaders, when they are starting, they

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are lacking this soft skills, kind of like define the common language of the business. Right?

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Yes.

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And it takes some time to kind of develop it.

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Yes. I think you need so I first of all, you need to have a in my opinion, you need to have

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a lot of interest on that because once you understand that the clients that you have, users

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or, business to business clients, is the people that you are working for. Right?

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That's without them, you don't have anything.

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So once you get to that mentality that, you know, the rest of the companies or the product owner

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or the chief product officer or the CEO, what they are trying to do is to sell what you are

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what you are trying to build.

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So you need to understand because, it's true that I made a lot of, especially when I started,

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a lot of, developers, a lot of tech people, which they are annoyed by the changes that are happening.

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And don't get me don't get me wrong. I understand it.

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But you need to develop the skill.

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You need to develop the mentality that you are not living in an island and the way you are doing

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is actually going to be used by someone, which is amazing.

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So you need to try to channel that knowledge that you have, the client has a pain or is going

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to have it, to your developers or to the tech team and to say, look, I know that that's not

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what we talked 2 months ago or not what we talked 1 month ago, but the market has changed.

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The client has changed, and there is nothing that that you can do.

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You could you can, you know, complain and and and do something wrong and and do it fast and

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dirty, But that is going to harm you because if we don't have money, it should kind of work,

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and it's going to basically harm all your colleagues.

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So because everyone will be affected by your decision of doing something faster and and break the the company.

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So this is this is the mentality that you need to to and and to develop and also be super calm.

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You need to be very calm.

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You need to understand that everyone is going to have a problem and that IT is going to have to solve it.

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So you need to, yeah, live with that. Be calm.

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I think this, like, a really good, 2 tips, be calm and, like, the client is your end kind of user. Right?

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You're building the stuff for the client, not for the CEO or for the sales guy, right? Yes. Yes.

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But for the client, so to have it in light. Yes. Exactly. Okay.

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And you work in a pretty distributed environment. Right?

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Because you before worked with some with some outsourcing companies outside like the really distributed teams.

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Do you have some lessons learned how to make it work, like some tips to other? How what works

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for you? Yeah. So I work with people, in different countries remote for a very long time.

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So for me for me, it's not new.

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What is happening now is I live like this since forever, and in different time zones as well.

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5 hours before, 5 hours ahead, 8, And there is something in my opinion, there is something super important.

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And it's like, you need to have the right communication tools, and you need to encourage, communication at all levels.

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What I mean is that sometimes I think people lose perspective when they get in the title, the

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or the management, and somehow they just

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close themselves to a direct communication with a junior developer working in in Manila. Right?

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And that is absolutely wrong.

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You need to tell everyone that you are reachable 247 for them.

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So they are in different time zones, and you need to know where the time zones are for them,

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and you need to be reachable.

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So your job is, as in my opinion, as a CDO of a distributed team is 247.

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It's unfortunate, but it's like that.

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And the second thing is that you need to give to the people in the absolute trust that they

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can work anywhere, anytime they want.

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And you are not going to go behind them to ask them, what did you do yesterday at 3 PM?

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Because I have seen that, and that's wrong.

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So once the people have the freedom to choose their their their work, their working hours, even the meetings. Right?

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Even, for example, having, I mean, stand up, the people call it a stand up so that there are

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meetings to check out between between team members and locations.

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If someone writes to you, how does to me, look, I'm stuck in traffic.

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I may not be able to join the meeting. That's okay.

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Really, there is no need.

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There is absolutely no need to be everyone together all the time talking.

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We will we will talk asynchronously synchronously later.

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So if you try if you are able to solve communication, you have 90 per 90 percent of the job done.

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Because then the rest is to be able to give clear

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definitions of the features and tasks that the people needs to do and as and as well give them

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the power to be back to you with what you told me doesn't make any sense.

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I do not understand it.

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And there is nothing like the development day is lost.

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And I know that because I've been a junior developer myself for many years.

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So sometimes you develop a lot in 8 hours.

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Sometimes you develop nothing because it's not a day to day.

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It's it's really like a long way.

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So you you need to create that kind of trust. Like, I trust you.

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I know that you are doing your best, and I trust your decisions.

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Take them because I am sleeping. Yes. Right?

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So this is this is the this is the it works very well for me, to be honest.

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I I I have met wonderful people everywhere, Everywhere, absolutely.

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And the the the result of this is that when I have, I start a new venture, I can call them back

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and and say, like, look, do you want to work with me, or do you want to do this together?

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And people know that this way of working is absolutely amazing.

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It's compatible with their lives, so they say yes.

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But you mentioned the interesting thing about people are really open to communicate. Right?

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They they are open to communicate with you, to talk with you, and you need to encourage people.

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But to be honest, like, I run, I run this organization, like, that I have a company based in Poland.

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We have 100 people, and I do it for almost 9 years.

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And I have a feeling that I'm really open person, really down to earth.

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If I go for integration party, nobody will know that the one I'm one of the cofounders because

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I'm really down to earth.

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But, I still have a problem that when I onboard people and I encourage them, I I have, like,

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a quick talk about the company and I encourage them, hey, this is my calendar.

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Just pick whatever time slot you want.

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You can always, like, reach out to me.

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I'm not, like, a proactive.

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I'm really bad at it, but you can always, like, put a calendar meeting in my calendar.

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And I even, like, share some tips.

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Like, I try to give the insights, like, to give the context why we are doing something on on a chat.

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I I prefer a sync way of communication, right?

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And then still I have a feeling that they are really it's really hard for them to reach out

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of to me because of the position that is on the paper. Right?

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Yes. Yes.

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So I'm just wondering how how in your case, how do you approach it? You know?

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Yes. So to the other, members of the company which are not in tech, I tell them to book my calendar like you do.

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I'm sure they will listen to this.

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I would say, well, why are you doing that? Yes.

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So to them, I do that.

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But to the to the members of of of tech, of IT, I have never send say this to anyone yet.

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So I gave them my phone number.

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I gave them a Slack, my mail, and I don't ask them to work.

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I say, just write to me at any time you want. It doesn't matter.

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You can write to me at 6 in the morning. I have Slack sometimes.

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You can write to me, you can send me a text message, or you can call me. Mhmm.

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Even if I'm on holidays, even if I'm driving Mhmm. Whatever, reach out.

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I'm I'm I'm going to be back to you, and I'm going to talk to you.

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You don't need to book a calendar for me.

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And what I do is, at the beginning, I reach out a lot to the people myself. So are you okay? How is it going?

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How did you do that?

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You know, some people are way more open, and this comes with the personalities.

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Some people are more, introverts, and and they prefer to, you know, different kind of communications.

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But in general lines, this has worked for me very, very well.

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So today, I woke up and I had 2 messages that someone sent me at, 6:0:5 in the morning, and

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I reply at 8, and and it's probably right to me later.

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There is a lot of asynchronous communication happening and a lot and then sometimes very synchronous. Mhmm.

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But I don't ask anyone to book a calendar for me in the tech team. Never.

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Interesting. But I think this proactive approach that you mentioned, like, at the very beginning, you asked the question.

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So you are really proactive on your own. Right? Yes. Yes.

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And this encourage maybe the people to get back to you. Right?

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Yes. Because, you know, I come from, being the last person in the texting many years, like the intern and stuff. Right?

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And I went, step by step and I saw what I didn't want. Right?

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So I and then I met, great CTOs, to be honest, that they saw me a little bit of the light of, alright. That's possible.

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So I want if I will join a company as a intern that I just finished my studies or I'm finishing

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my studies, I would like that the person that, is the supposed to be the head and leader of

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the city of the of the tech is gonna come to me and tell me, look,

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I trust you. Take your own decisions.

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Reach out for help to me or any one of the team members.

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And it doesn't cost you anything to say, like, few words a day or to to reach out to someone. It's it's just okay.

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Say saying good morning in the, you know, to your neighbors doesn't cost you anything. Right?

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So and it it makes a lot of difference.

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So that's that's that's what I try.

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I always like to ask hard questions.

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So so I'm wondering, in case of your career, what was the hardest thing that you have ever done,

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in in tech as a tech leader?

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Maybe the hardest challenge tech not the technical challenge but maybe with people.

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If you could tell about it and what you have learned from it.

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Well, perhaps one of the hardest things, was a company I joined, and before joining the company,

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I hire a a backend developer.

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I was joining as a CTO.

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I hire a backend developer, And, actually, this person joined before me.

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So let's say I I started on the 1st September, and this person joined on 1st August.

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But there was a team in place in that company, already.

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But when I arrived, the the back end developer told me that everyone was being very harsh with

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him, and there was a team lead that he was being very, very, very hard to work with, didn't

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really communicate with him, and so forth and so on.

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So when I arrived, I check out the team and I found very, very hard to to manage people.

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So the company had, like, millions of users, daily, And we I had to take the decision.

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The CEO asked me, like, do do what you think you have to do.

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So I had to take the decision to let go everyone at some point.

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So I felt some and then the rest of the team.

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And basically, we were alone.

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This back end developer and me with a system that was really huge, and they had to run some

29:52 - 29:54
millions of users, and I had nothing.

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And, I think the first day, second day at night,

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the back end went down.

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So it's just an error, it's gone.

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And we had to solve it.

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And we had to build a team from the ground floor.

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We solved it, thanks to the backend developer, and we had to build the team from the ground

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floor, but at the same time we needed to manage the whole thing running and that took like around 6 months.

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It was very, very, very, very hard, very tough because any moment the system could go down was unstable.

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Backups were not ready because the previous team didn't do a backup for, like, 10 years.

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So it was, like, really, really hard.

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And what I learned from that is that when you are pushed to the wall, you are more capable than

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you think so on doing many things.

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And and, I lost fear to anything.

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It's like, just don't fear anything anymore because that was stream.

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And then we were hiring people little by little, that they were as resilient as we that that was the key point.

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It wasn't like how much, you know.

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It was like, hey, can you really face all these problems that we had. And they were. And, yeah.

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So that's that's that's basically one of the hardest things that I did this.

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Amazing story. I I think I experienced something similar.

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I lost the fear and after that, the things become so easy.

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Like, it was I I had similar situation, but the it's, I can relate to that. So

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Yes. Because there is a moment that you realize that,

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everything is solvable. You know?

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Even the hardest thing, you can really get around that, and you can really go and and and solve it.

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And, yeah, it's it's something that you learn.

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You have to experience like you did.

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You see, can no one tell you, like, till you don't leave it and your palms are sweating because nothing works.

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That's that's the when you when you pass this this moment, the rest is okay.

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And the last question that, I wanted to ask you, are there any books, resources, conferences,

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I don't know, podcasts, whatever, was really beneficial for you in your career as a tech leader

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that you had those moment after, you know, reading those or, you know, learning from those?

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Yes. So here, I would say that in terms of books, I love literature.

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Like like, it's a hobby.

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And I would say to the people, you need to to read philosophy, and I would say read Seneca if you can. Mhmm.

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Because Seneca is telling the stories of, just giving advice to people that are having very

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hard times, how to deal with them.

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One thing is to read, one thing is to live it, of course, but it helps.

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And there is a book, by Ayn Rand, the fountainhead, which, tells the story, and I recommend

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it to everyone to read.

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It's an architect, which has completely different ideas of what is going on right now in New York.

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And it fights through all the established thinking and he goes with his ideas, hiring people

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to work with him based on pure talent and and and personalities and is the value of a person

34:13 - 34:16
more than you have a lot of value. You can bring it.

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Just go with it because it's there.

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And in terms of podcast, I I I listen a lot of, health, related podcasts, and I I will say Peter

34:28 - 34:38
Adia is, a doctor in the US that tops all things health, and I love running.

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So doing hard things, I think running is can become very hard sometimes.

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And listening to the health, help me to perform much better because, you know, you are aware

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of your health and you are very, comfortable with yourself.

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And then basically, you you you really can perform, way better.

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So educate yourself about health as much as you can.

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Of course, we are not doctors, but, it helps a lot, I think.

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Awesome. Thank you. Thank you very much for all the tips and recommendation.

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It was a pleasure to talk to you today, Jose.

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Thank you very much for having me here.

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